The Sealed Dagger: A Ninja Guide

I agree that with rare exception kendatsuba wins the body slot for tp.
Also, like Langley, I think the MEVA is a huge boon - particularly in some more challenging high tier fights. Kendatsuba is leaps and bounds over mummu defensively and mummu was well above any previous competition. Coupling that with all the acc. (Most important), Crit rate, and ta, kendatsuba becomes invaluable for fights like neak or unity behemoth.
I'm also eager to see how it fares against Arciela. At least for
Me personally she was the only real challenge in tanking SR.

May have misspoke a bit, its that of all the ken slotts, in perfect zerg situation samnuah had the largest dps impact over other slotts I could see. So I said leaps and bounds, which holds true if you do a slott by slott comparison. This makes sense because by the time you have all those buffs acc/attack become pointless and its all multi attack and stp, which samnuha has a good chunk of both.

Its hit or miss the legs are all over the place tbh. I got samnuah in an avg SV bolster zerg fight like 120 dps over ken, if its a non sv bolster it was like 30, and as the buffs drop or mob lv increases then ken actually starts winning. For example if you use a 145 content mob and no SV/Bolster then ken NQ actually win by around 170 which is amazing and its obviously because your lacking acc, but under the same conditions using lv140 samnusha wins by 50.

Basically what I am drawing as a good rule of thumb is this. Low lv stuff <130 samnuah is generally better, and when you have or nearing MAX buffs. When your not at max buffs on mid and high lv stuff then ken will probably win. I think most fall into using Nin on lower level stuff so I would assume by that most players are better served by Max Samnuha, however getting Ken NQ is by no means gimping it even in those situations as they could be allowed to swap other acc gear slots for more DD oriented stuff.

If no acc swaps in gear it might be time for a food change then and might server them better in overall dps as an idea. I know I use RCB/Crepes when I cp nin long before the eva nerf since I was capped acc in my tp set (at the time I used shigi). I think running around town in my low acc set with Ochu offhand now I am still normally 1160~, so for someone like me sushi on apex is WAY overkill, however ken legs would bump me to right around 1200 and I could then use rcb, making a nice 150 attack gain which is probably a better idea. This is an example of why I think the ken set is overall probably better, not to mention the defensive stats which are amazing vs even xp mobs (resist pugils slow, resist the crab aoes, etc)

FWIW, my Herculean Vest with Acc+33/Atk+20/TA+4 augs is more or less a sidegrade to Kendatsuba Samue from an offensive perspective (most situations I spreadsheet show Kendatsuba very, very slightly ahead - I'm talking like within 10 or so DPS of each other). Though, yeah, the Meva is also something to consider.

So, if you already have really good Herc augments, or can easily get bodies to toss stones at them, perhaps you can save some gil. But it sure is nice to not need to get a solid TA+4 Herc if you don't already have one.

Perfect Samnuha legs are a little harder to justify swapping out for Ken unless you really need that acc. But of course, SR augments can be a real pain so Ken existing as another very respectable high end option is certainly welcome.

The point of Kendatsuba being a more or less valid alternative to random augments is valid for all slots frankly.
Altough I feel it's less valid for hands/feet because Herc has natural TA in those slots, I feel the "small dps difference" you're seeing between your FANTASTIC herc body and NQ kendatsuba, would be far larger (and in favor of Herc) with equally good augments in the hands and feet slot.

But still, if someone doesn't already have good stuff in those slots, Kendatsuba offers what could arguably be a cheaper and certainly less time consuming option.

Well, you don't need random augments to beat/equal Kendatsuba in head/hands slots though since Adhemar exists. For people who play a lot of light DD jobs, it's also relevant that Adhemar/Herc are useful for more jobs and don't require 500jp.

For head, NQ Adhemar is significantly better when you don't need much acc, and even on most rather high end content generally stays around sidegrade territory. Ken won't be beneficial unless you're massively lacking in acc on the most evasive content, so being limited to mega acc sets only is a fairly niche use case.

For hands, NQ Adhemar (or a well augmented Herc) solidly beat Ken in the vast majority of situations. Ken don't really seem to do better than sidegrade territory even in mega acc sets, their best use case.

For feet, you do have to deal with Oseem a little bit, but Herc are so easy to get and so good that it's really worth it. I can't imagine someone being so unlucky that you can't do better with Herc at far less cost, without too much RNG pain.

All that being said, there IS some defensive value in Kendatsuba that could justify using multiple pieces (in any of the 5 slots, really) if you're often using NIN for very high end content with annoying magical AoE. Meva is much more helpful when you can stack a lot of it to get well above floored, and Kendatsuba has a ton of it. Plus, those kinds of situations often tend to be the ones with more accuracy challenges, which align nicely to Kendatsuba's high acc. (I feel like I just took a lot more words to regurgitate what Langly mentioned last page: look at all the Meva!)

I dunno. We're talking about NQ Adhemar right?
NQ Adhemar should be much cheaper, and that's a pro I guess, and has other pros/cons.
More jobs can use it, less meva, it's kinda a complex situation when you have to choose between path A and path B.
One gives you the right stats and Att, but no Acc, the other gives a little bit of acc but no att and lolagi
Hands have base acc but att, Head has base att but no acc.
So... I dunno, it's kinda a pain to answer, I think Kendatsuba is still a valid alternative when you need acc, it offers the same amount of TA but additional CritRate, but no Critdamage/STP.

So we're back to square one, I think we can still define Kenda a pretty valid, alternative to the other options (Adhemar/Herculean/Samnuha/Dampening)


But yeah I agree it's kinda less attractive in the Head, Hands and Feet slot.
For legs I'm still a bit skeptic though, if someone is lacking perf aug Samnuha I don't think there's many other valid options.
And for Body we said it already, I think Kend is possibly the best option unless you have insanely good Herc augs, or an HQ Adhemar body maybe (but personally I don't like the DW on the Adhemar body for NIN...)

Yeah, NQ. The crit damage ends up being stronger than you might guess, making NQ/HQ Bonnet - either A or B paths - easily your best head options when you don't need acc. I was a little surprised how well Adhemar holds up until you're severely lacking acc, but eventually Ken does pull ahead - though I don't typically NIN on stuff that needs me to use that heavy of an acc set. YMMV and all that. At the very least, Ken does replace something like Dampening Tam (which used to be my non-DW "high acc" head choice, though if you ever need DW it's tough to beat Ryuo). Good piece, just have to use it in the right situations.

I'm waiting it out a little on Ken head until prices go down a bit more, but I'll pick one up eventually. It does have at least some best in slot applications.


It's not ideal, but I find people tend to overstate the negative impact of going a little over cap on DW. For a piece like Adhemar Jacket with so many other good stats, it's still very strong even with a slight reduction in TP/hit. Though, Kendatsuba (or a good Herc) IS better in that slot when you aren't getting benefit from the DW.

so with the new su3 set, im figuring head for single hit ws wsd, and would hands be an ""ok"" to try and play (in reference to upgrading)?

For Ten, Kamu, and Metsu I wouldn't suggest using Ken pieces. These WSs require WSD% to put out damage, so if you're looking to maximize your damage I would suggest using Herculean gear with some Acc/Att and WSD+3-5%. If you can't obtain these pieces, then, in that case, Ken would do just fine. As for Hi and Shun, Ken pieces are a go-to, as it provides Crit Hit Rate % and Triple Attack.

Blade: Kamu's fTP is pretty low, so multiattack, relative to WSD, doesn't perform too poorly.

Ken pieces aren't awful for Hi or Shun, but I would not call them a "go-to".

For Hi, Kendatsuba performs worse than you might initially think from seeing that it has Crit Rate. WSD pieces (and crit DAMAGE, for that matter) will generally still beat NQ Ken gear in all slots, and will likely double as great Ten or Metsu gear too (WSD Herculean gear even with a non-AGI augment, Hizamaru +1/+2 legs, Hachiya +2/+3 head, etc.). Even some Adhemar gear (head, hands, feet) will frequently beat Ken - as always, depending on acc needs and other gear.

For Shun, Kendatsuba is OK, and generally a bit more appealing when you need a ton of acc as a multi-hit WS. However, I've yet to really find it beating other gear. The Ken set overall has good DEX, which seems appealing at first glance... but for Shun, it has a nasty downside of totally lacking attack (which is very important for Shun unless you're really mega buffed and capping attack even considering Shun's inherent attack penalty). I find that TA Herculean gear tends to do better, as do some abjuration pieces, Samnuha or Jokushu legs, etc.

I know the OP does list some Ken+1 gear in sets for both of these WS, but:
(1) good luck getting +1 pieces, which I don't even really bother comparing at this point, and
(2) as the note in the OP even mentions, WS sets can vary wildly based on buffs/targets.

For me, comparing NQ crafted/abjuration gear and good but reasonable (not dream tier) Herculean augments, I really don't see much place for Ken gear in my NIN WS sets.If you're really struggling for accuracy yet capping attack (a sort of odd situation) it would probably perform its best. I certainly wouldn't advocate for people dropping the gil on this gear specifically for NIN WS though.

Shun has a huge attack bonus, not a penalty. You're going by outdated information I think. It's probably the last weaponskill where you need to worry about attack.

Thats new :o when did SE change the att mods on Shun? Used to be a penalty, no?
Do we have some evidence about the actual values? bgWiki lists 200% at 3k TP but that sounds a bit oddly high to me.

Ya it used to be like an 8% penalty. With the 1 handed buffs it however got changed.

Oh, damn.

Well, that changes things a bit in that you don't need to worry as much about having enough attack to overcome penalty. More likely to hit capped attack on WS. However, if you aren't waiting for the 2000~3000tp attack bonus, attack is still relevant for gearing Shun when you're WSing at 1000tp. And with a big attack multiplier, each point of attack on gear is worth even more until the point you hit capped attack (which you can't really take as a given on current high end content, unless you're like... running everything with Idris Fury/Frailty or something).

And yeah, the old penalty was 8% IIRC. I think it was same as Resolution.

IDK if the most recent spreadsheets here model Shun correctly, but I still don't get Kendatsuba beating stuff like Herculean/Abjuration choices for Shun though.

Are you using shun with any katana other than a Heishi Shorinken?

Aaaand are you using NQ or HQ kendatsuba?

im lame and building a relic >.> (will start a heishi when i get another 20k beads, picked gun and haven't started it yet)

would you say wsd is ok for kamu? im getting really decent and consistent damage with it. i recently got the ken legs, and then later got sam leg almost perf >.> but i got a nice str10, wsd 6% herc leg aug to. dont know the prioity on stats to focus on first like wsd<>stats<>att<>multi att. *Edit. now that i think of it, maybe the guides should list the prioity of ws's before showing the gear (for those of us who are struggling to get to the best of the best still, but not knowing what works in the mean time).

There isn't a general rule for following STAT vs WSDMG as it's going to depend on how much of said stat you already have and your current damage.

WSD 6% STR10 works perfectly fine for Kamu.

I couldn't agree more - the numbers don't lie.

fantastic graph, how long did it take you?

As a general rule: as the stat mod diminishes, returns from wsd increases. Following that train of thought you can look at herc augs for diff. WS's. For Blade: ten you'd want 10str 5wsd, whereas with metsu you could do better with 15dex 4wsd.
However, as Langley said it's circumstantial for a number of reasons and of course varies based on how much of xstat vs. Wsd you have

Thoughts on DW back for nin? Obviously at max haste you need 0 DW so its useless there, but for 0/15/30/35 haste needing 39/31/19/13 DW it might have a place? I know the DA 10% is normally way undervalued now because of the 35%~+ TA people are rocking.

Honestly, it depends on the DW gear you currently have. Having Adhemar Vest +1 and/or Ryuo Somen +1 makes your life way easier and less sacrifices need to be made. In most cases, the DW cape isn't necessary unless you want a certain build. But there's a ton of questions you should be asking yourself when you're doing melee sets, especially from 0-35% Haste (Including your accuracy levels: Normal,Low,Mid,Acc). Do I want to meet the exact DW values or down by one or up by one? Do I want to meet a certain STP value? Do I want DA/TA/QA? Do I want a Ken body equipped at 0% haste? Do I want more att than acc? Am I facing a Helm?, Fodder Mobs? Apex Mobs? Mix and Match gear until you're satisfied. Every NIN is different. Fit what suits your playstyle.

A DW+10 cape is actually the first ambuscade cape I made. The choice to use it was always clear to me (for situations where I need that much dw). While the diminished returns on da were a factor, my concern and ultimately my justification was what I would gain or lose trying to get that much dw in other slots. I know a lot of people use dw belts and IMO that's one of the worst things you can do. You really want (less than) 10% da over Windbuffet +1? Not only is the cape a good spot to make concessions to accommodate dw, it's a HUGE amount. Like lilmartio Said - it's circumstancial, if you only need ten dw, maybe just rock adhemar body and floral gauntlets. You'd still have good ta and decent acc etc., but maybe you're tanking so adhemar's enmity loss isn't ideal; or maybe (as is often the case when you need dw) you're not getting the haste love and you need a good bit of dw. Maybe you've already got adhemar body and floral gauntlets on and it's not enough, gee - I could take off damp. Tam or samnuha Tights and windbuffet - OR I could lose less than 10 da to gain 10 dw! Seems pretty cut and dry to me.
Also since I brought up the head slot (Tam reference), for those times I'm really thirsty for dw (or just want a large chunk in one spot) I DO really like the ryuo mask, particularly with stp augment when acc permits (since dw hurts your tp returns).

Ya I had never used a DW cape, but its seeming that every other slot for LARGE chunks of DW (feet/legs/body/head) all have way better QA/TA options now that would crush 10DA.

Seems like I will be making a DW cape!

On a different note: does anyone have any setups running good numbers with Nagi?
I've been thinking about fights like Neak where MAYBE a ninja could land blind, and Teles with a burst strat. where a ninja as nuker and secondary tank might be useful. I know from SCH that now more than ever macc is essential and that need might provide niche relevance for Nagi once again. Sadly however, after playing with the spreadsheet I haven't been able to workout a setup that comes close to the other Katana REAMs. Ideas?

Yeah, DW cape has some use when you're getting Haste I/II only (or absolutely no haste).

I certainly wouldn't prioritize it over a non-DW TP cape (which, if you go DEX/DA also doubles as a great Shun piece), or probably a WSD piece for your Ten/Hi/Metsu WS of choice, but it's got some use.

Some viable examples:

Haste II only:
10% Ambuscape
5% Adhemar Jacket
5-7% from whatever you like - Floral, Suppa, Haverton/+1 (that you might have if you RNG like me)
---
20-22% DW total (Need 20~21% to cap. 20 is fine - puts you at 79.74% reduction. Slightly overshooting with 22 is also not a big deal, 80.64% and extremely minimal TP penalty)

Haste I only:
10% Ambuscape
5% Adhemar Jacket
5% Suppa
5% Floral
7% Reiki Yotai (or perhaps Haverton+1 if you have that)
---
32% total DW (80.08% total delay reduction)

And if you're using an old *** version of a deterimine_haste_group, I've begun to use my own with a toggle or two for Haste Mode/March Mode.

Bind these to whatever you want. (I use Alt+` and WinKey+`)

Haste mode is self explanitory. March mode being for whether or not you have trusts, or a bard with only +3 (like hands, neck, instrument), or +7 (like gjallarhorn + everything else), or honor march (assuming if the user has honor march, they also have gjallar).

Then just adjust your break points with the bottom portion to setup your custom groups. I only bother with zero haste, 15%, 30%, 35%, and capped.

I've been using this for all my DW jobs thanks to a linkshell friend, and it's pretty great!