I basically have to go parse myself on apex mobs not using shurikens in 5/5 kenda without TP roll to see how much of my damage is auto-attacks now since 25% is inaccurate. It could be 20%, then store tp roll + adhemar gloves/samnuha tights can make it 15% or less.
That's a pretty big hit to Kannagi's damage. The "proper" spreadsheet already shows it's super far behind Kikoku and Heishi now, though, and that's starting with AM up upon engagement.
The Sealed Dagger: A Ninja Guide
The Sealed Dagger: A Ninja Guide
AM3 is always going to be an effective average of 100% extra on your main hand. x + (2x * 0.5) = 2. Offhand isn't applied, so ~50% increase in auto attack damage. Kikoku will be ~10% for TP and autos. WS frequency will change your percentage of auto attack damage to ws damage, but the bonus is still the same which is why daken procs have nothing to do with comparing aftermath's effective increase.
Every point of STP and Daken activation takes a swing away from white damage... but you might be taking it a little to seriously.
In a single fight where you "white damage hit" 200 times we're talking ~75(main hands with daken) vs 100(mains without daken) of which half won't be AM anyway. so ~13ish less instances of triple damage? That's pretty minuscule.
It is less. and it is true... but it's not that serious imo.
If a normal melee hit is 500, you're losing 13k damage across 200 hits, but dakens don't do zero damage, they do... idk 300? so you still gain damage (50 dakens would be 15k).
In a single fight where you "white damage hit" 200 times we're talking ~75(main hands with daken) vs 100(mains without daken) of which half won't be AM anyway. so ~13ish less instances of triple damage? That's pretty minuscule.
It is less. and it is true... but it's not that serious imo.
If a normal melee hit is 500, you're losing 13k damage across 200 hits, but dakens don't do zero damage, they do... idk 300? so you still gain damage (50 dakens would be 15k).
i don't think you understand what a percent change is.
50% increase to auto attacks is a 50% increase to auto attacks, regardless of how many auto attacks you do. likewise, so is 10%. daken is completely unrelated to either weapon's aftermath.
50% increase to auto attacks is a 50% increase to auto attacks, regardless of how many auto attacks you do. likewise, so is 10%. daken is completely unrelated to either weapon's aftermath.
You get less melee swings because of daken
less melee hits = less am proc = lessened value of am
(I don't believe this is big enough to worry about... but it is factually accurate)
(*Daken also devalues relic hidden ODD, just to put that out there)
less melee hits = less am proc = lessened value of am
(I don't believe this is big enough to worry about... but it is factually accurate)
(*Daken also devalues relic hidden ODD, just to put that out there)
i know math is difficult for you but percent based increases don't give a ***about how many attacks you make. you make one hundred attacks, it's a ~50% increase. you make a million attacks, it's still a ~50% increase.
if you are worried about daken then you need to consider other variables such as kannagi ranged benefits for accuracy, crit rate and store tp from heishi.
if you're just comparing the benefit of kikoku and kannagi aftermath on melee tp damage, then daken isn't part of the equation.
if you are worried about daken then you need to consider other variables such as kannagi ranged benefits for accuracy, crit rate and store tp from heishi.
if you're just comparing the benefit of kikoku and kannagi aftermath on melee tp damage, then daken isn't part of the equation.
No one said you get less % just physically less swings. another simple concept.
If it takes 6 katana + 2 daken to make 100 tp
You get less AM procs(and relic procs!) than you would if
If took 8 katana swings and zero dakens.
But again, and I can't overstate this. While true its insignificant.
If it takes 6 katana + 2 daken to make 100 tp
You get less AM procs(and relic procs!) than you would if
If took 8 katana swings and zero dakens.
But again, and I can't overstate this. While true its insignificant.
it's a simple concept you don't get.
8 katana swings with an average of 50% more damage is 12, 6 katana swings with an average of 50% more damage is 9. 12 / 8 = holy ***, 50%. 9 / 6 = 50% also? omg that's so crazy, it's almost like percent changes don't care about daken procs for the effective auto attack damage increase.
8 katana swings with an average of 50% more damage is 12, 6 katana swings with an average of 50% more damage is 9. 12 / 8 = holy ***, 50%. 9 / 6 = 50% also? omg that's so crazy, it's almost like percent changes don't care about daken procs for the effective auto attack damage increase.
No.
3 AM procs vs 4 AM procs.
500 + 500 + 500 + 1500 + 1500 + 1500 is less than
500 + 500 + 500 + 500 + 1500 + 1500 + 1500 + 1500
AM rate didn't change. No one said it did. But you will get less of them since you swing less.
meaning its less important (but for the 3rd time, not by enough to really matter)
3 AM procs vs 4 AM procs.
500 + 500 + 500 + 1500 + 1500 + 1500 is less than
500 + 500 + 500 + 500 + 1500 + 1500 + 1500 + 1500
AM rate didn't change. No one said it did. But you will get less of them since you swing less.
meaning its less important (but for the 3rd time, not by enough to really matter)
(1500 + 1500 + 1500) / (500 + 500 + 500 + 1500 + 1500 + 1500) = 0.75
(1500 + 1500 + 1500 + 1500) / (500 + 500 + 500 + 500 + 1500 + 1500 + 1500 + 1500 ) = 0.75
how crazy is that?
(1500 + 1500 + 1500 + 1500) / (500 + 500 + 500 + 500 + 1500 + 1500 + 1500 + 1500 ) = 0.75
how crazy is that?
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Asura.Eiryl said: »
meaning its less important
Asura.Eiryl said: »
AM rate didn't change. No one said it did. But you will get less of them since you swing less.
meaning its less important (but for the 3rd time, not by enough to really matter)
meaning its less important (but for the 3rd time, not by enough to really matter)
If you swing a thousand times no daken, 500 AM procs.
If you "swing" a total thousand counting dakens you only get like 350 AM procs.
The rate stayed the same, the amount changed.
you can quote yourself all you want, it doesn't make you right.
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It really really does.
Youre talking about something completely different.
Youre talking about something completely different.
no it doesn't.
you can daken 99 *** times in one round and aftermath would increase your auto attack damage by ~50% or ~10%, it doesn't *** matter. ws frequency has nothing to do with effective damage gained from auto attack damage from aftermath. does it increase dps? yes, is it related to the original topic comparing the increase of aftermath alone? no.
you can daken 99 *** times in one round and aftermath would increase your auto attack damage by ~50% or ~10%, it doesn't *** matter. ws frequency has nothing to do with effective damage gained from auto attack damage from aftermath. does it increase dps? yes, is it related to the original topic comparing the increase of aftermath alone? no.
500 + 500 + 500 + 1500 + 1500 + 1500 + 300 + 300 + 20k ws
or
500 + 500 + 500 + 500 + 1500 + 1500 + 1500 + 1500 + 20k ws
One is literally more damage than the other. They both get 50% AM.
(500 is melee, 1500 is AM, 300 is daken)
or
500 + 500 + 500 + 500 + 1500 + 1500 + 1500 + 1500 + 20k ws
One is literally more damage than the other. They both get 50% AM.
(500 is melee, 1500 is AM, 300 is daken)
how many *** times do you have to be shown something? 50% is a percent increase, you can do an infinite amount of damage on daken but am3 would only increase your auto attack damage by 50 *** percent. stop trying to do math, you've made it very clear you can't.
Been diving into the spreadsheet and found something fairly significant concerning Daken and the handling of Empyrean AM. Daken, as it's handled in the spreadsheet, simply adds the procs to mainhand swing probability as a followup attack. Cell B257 on the Data tab, which is calculated to approximate the value of Empy AM3 uses a formula including the average hits per round of mainhand. Now the issue is that number is inflated due to using a value with Daken as a follow up, when Daken does not benefit from Empyrean AM3 in that way.
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the fact that they were talking about % increase to auto attack damage from kannagi aftermath suggestes otherwise. quoting ***out of context also doesn't make you right.
Asura.Eiryl said: »
Mic drop
Ramuh.Austar said: »
if you are worried about daken then you need to consider other variables such as kannagi ranged benefits for accuracy, crit rate and store tp from heishi.
This is it. It’s pretty apparent that Kanagi and Heishi’s benefit to Daken are a net positive.
As for another point: is there anyone out there who has Kikoku AND Kannagi or Heishi and is ACTUALLY getting better results in real gameplay with Kikoku? It simply doesn’t happen for me versus Kannagi, outside of very uncommon situations where Metsu is vital to a SC. I’m pretty sure I know how to hit my WS when I have TP. As an actual Kikoku owner, I’m just not buying that it’s as good as people seem to want to believe based on my real experience with the weapon.
Makes sense, I knew that the spreadsheet overvalued emp AM3 and auto-attacks in general but now I know exactly WHY it overvalued emp AM3 so much.
Leviathan.Miyuakemi said: »
Been diving into the spreadsheet and found something fairly significant concerning Daken and the handling of Empyrean AM. Daken, as it's handled in the spreadsheet, simply adds the procs to mainhand swing probability as a followup attack. Cell B257 on the Data tab, which is calculated to approximate the value of Empy AM3 uses a formula including the average hits per round of mainhand. Now the issue is that number is inflated due to using a value with Daken as a follow up, when Daken does not benefit from Empyrean AM3 in that way.
Thank you for the heads up. I've altered the Named Range for melee dmg without the daken proc for calculating the (AvgDmg/Rnd) on that sheet.
I've kept another named range explicitly for calculating the avg tp/rnd based on the previous discussion in this thread.
The OTD should not be using daken's avghits contribution the Data tab. You can see this value on the melee tab at H18 for Set1 and H59 for set2.
-The kannagi's 1.1 duplication should not be occuring either now.
The sheet includes access to Mache Earrings(+1)'s.
Link is same as it was on the front page.
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It's like a 200dps drop with that fix (daken) I think. If it's wrong.
goes from 5000 to 4300 (with AM)
goes from 4200 to 3700 (no AM)
200 damage difference
goes from 5000 to 4300 (with AM)
goes from 4200 to 3700 (no AM)
200 damage difference
Quote:
Kannagi 5018 4558 Wow.
Kikoku 5340
Heishi 5830
And those assume kannagi and kikoku START with aftermath up. Take that away and heishi is even further ahead.
Kikoku 5340
Heishi 5830
And those assume kannagi and kikoku START with aftermath up. Take that away and heishi is even further ahead.
Phoenix.Capuchin said: »
As for another point: is there anyone out there who has Kikoku AND Kannagi or Heishi and is ACTUALLY getting better results in real gameplay with Kikoku? It simply doesn’t happen for me versus Kannagi, outside of very uncommon situations where Metsu is vital to a SC. I’m pretty sure I know how to hit my WS when I have TP. As an actual Kikoku owner, I’m just not buying that it’s as good as people seem to want to believe based on my real experience with the weapon.
It requires the Augment. Without it, Kannagi has little difficulty maintaining superiority.
[+]
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