I also suspect Innin is melee acc only, but that's just my non-tested hunch.
Good points about trading buffs, and having a GEO do eva- to help everyone and free BRDs up to not necessarily need Madrigals.
Also, perhaps useful that NIN has a ton of acc in our high acc sets these days, probably more than most melees you'd be fighting alongside. So, might be able to deal with less melee acc buffs more easily than other jobs? Still might have to beg, but perhaps a kind BRD would Pianissimo a Prelude onto you while doing Madrigal on the rest of the party. For me, I tend to bring my BRD mule with me... so I guess I can manage to give myself the buffs I want ;)
Also, on those particularly evasive wave 3 mobs... I guess that might just be a situation where you have to suck it up and just focus on melee accuracy as the priority. I already hold Aggressor for them (also no help on ranged acc), or might wait on Innin when I know some evasive named mob or a group of evasive mobs is coming. Still doesn't hurt to add racc where you can, and on the evasive stuff you'll probably want high acc gear anyway... and can tweak sets to give Racc where feasible as well. Ken+1 gear, Ilabrat Ring, I've even been toying with whether it's viable to try stuff like Cacoethic Ring +1 (Acc+11/Racc+16) or Eschan Stone (Acc+15/Racc+15) for high acc sets in those niche kinda of situations, as opposed to the typical melee focus of acc only and using the normal suspects for heavy acc like Ramuh+1 or Olseni Belt.
The Sealed Dagger: A Ninja Guide
The Sealed Dagger: A Ninja Guide
Phoenix.Capuchin said: »
Bismarck.Lilmartio said: »
I feel like this set only applies to Kannagi users. Kiko, Heishi, and other users even with 5/5 Kendatsuba +1 have a hard time trying to cap RACC when fighting anything 145+. Heishi and Kiko users have to sacrifice so much just to be cap RACC to the point where you're just killing overall DPS when trying. Which is why the OP has things like Dedition as BiS.
That logic doesn't make much sense. Kannagi gets a little more Racc than Heishi and Kikoku thanks to AGI, so... ignore Racc when using Heishi and Kikoku? Use Acc-/Racc- earring on 145+ when you're probably not capping MELEE hit rate, much less ranged?
More Racc = extra Daken TP on any of the weapons, and it's really not hard to get good Racc on lots of our good normal melee TP pieces. And the more Daken we get (like the shiny new +25 neck, giving a total of Daken+79 for a 2000JP+ NIN), the more benefit we see from TP pieces that also happen to have a lot of Racc. Heck, something like Heishi skews more heavily toward the WS side of the WS/white damage split, so more Daken procs landing just means more WS where you can maximize the weapon's strengths.
To break it down a bit for the important TP gear featuring strong Racc (and all of this is true regardless of mainhand):
(a) There's really no reasonable debate that Ken/+1 body, Adhemar+1 hands, Ninja Nodowa +1/+2, Telos Earring are good in pretty much all realistic endgame NIN TP situations.
(b) When you fight harder targets (and not even necessarily the absolutely highest end stuff), Fudo Masamune, Ken+1 legs/feet and Ilabrat Ring are fairly generally accepted as very good (if someone disagrees, step right up) and at least in the conversation for BiS pieces - mostly due the melee acc, or stuff like TA/STP, but all of these also happen to be very high end Racc gear as well.
(c) Ken+1 head/hands are also viable TP options, particularly if you care about the defensive benefits (which may well be the case on top end content); they aren't a huge offensive drop-off from the Adhemar+1 pieces you'd probably use in less demanding situations. They also have superb Racc, in addition to the Acc/HP/Meva/TA. Personally, I use Adhemar +1 head/hands in my default TP set, but 5/5 Ken+1 on my high acc set.
Also, don't forget that Daken procs get an inherent Racc bonus, AFAIK that's believed to be Racc+100. That won't show up on /checkparam.
Ramuh.Austar said: »
OP doesn't give any regard to acc or atk, that's why
Austar is, of course, correct that stuff like Dedition (and even, to a lesser extent, things like Samnuha Tights and perhaps Hetaroi Ring) are on the main OP sets because those have assumed capped acc/atk. As always, personal call as to whether that's a sensible decision. If you're trying to fight Wave 3 divergence mobs as effectively as possible, it sure as hell isn't. If you're optimizing for stuff at the level of Omen trash mobs or below, then yeah, you're probably safe assuming capped most of the time.
For me, I tend to shoot for default sets that would be best for somewhat challenging current endgame content. Though yeah, I do maintain a more low-mid range set and a heavier acc set. If pieces come out to be sidegrade-ish on low ilevel content but one pulls away on more difficult stuff, I'll tend to go with the one that performs better on the hard stuff as my default choice across the board - I'd rather be sure I have it when I really need it, even if I that requires accepting slightly worse spreadsheet DPS when fighting trivial content. I don't really see the point anyway in optimizing for... Low end Apex mobs? Delve level? That stuff is going to die so fast that tweaking builds to squeeze out a few more DPS is really quite irrelevant.
The job ability Innin says Accuracy, I never had any reason to believe it added Ranged Accuracy as well. Though, that would really be a neat QoL update if Innin gave +30 Acc/Racc before gear-altering (erhm....Empyrean +3 head) items.
With the exception of Madrigals, I really don't think there should be a major difference between melee accuracy and Daken accuracy in typical current TP sets. This seems to be a pretty common misconception. When I'm uncapped Racc, I'm generally uncapped Acc too.
For instance, we'll take a pretty typical high end TP set:
ItemSet 361681
* Melee accuracy: DEX+252 (=Acc+189) + Acc+290
* Ranged accuracy: AGI+235 (=Racc+176) + Racc+253 + Racc+100 (Daken innate bonus)
* Total effective Melee accuracy of 479, Ranged accuracy of 529.
However, Madrigals are a very significant what-if factor, since they can push you from uncapped to capped melee accuracy, but leave ranged accuracy uncapped. Sechs had some good thoughts about how to potentially deal with that.
Specific to Kannagi, Taka CAN win situationally as offhand due to the Racc, assuming capped Acc/Atk. Otherwise, Fudo Masamune will win if you're uncapped Atk or Acc. For non-Kannagi mainhands which aren't getting the Racc that Kannagi does (from AGI), it's sometimes harder to cap Racc - that's a big part of why Fudo generally does so well as offhand on hard stuff, the Racc+50 is significant.
Actually... interestingly enough, all of this extra Daken we have with JSE neck has made Taka a stronger potential offhand for non-Kannagi mainhands now, precisely for those situations where you cap melee acc but are uncapped on Daken racc.
For instance, 145CL, same TP set as above with Heishi mainhand, solid Ten set, and the following (substantial) buffs:
BRD: Honor March, Min5, March 2, Mad2 (note that Mad2 is important, since in this case it means capped melee acc and uncapped ranged acc)
GEO: Torpor/Frailty (non-Bolstered Idris values of Eva-100 and DEF -41.8%)
COR: Samurai/Chaos
For Heishi mainhand, I get the following order for offhands:
Fudo (by a lot) > Taka > Kanaria (spreadsheet TA+) > Ochu
If I only change the neck from Ninja Nodowa +2 to Moonlight, no other adjustments, offhand DPS order changes to:
Fudo=Kanaria (sidegrades) > Ochu > Taka
TLDR; this neck piece and the impact of all that Daken from a single piece has actually significantly affected other NIN TP gear considerations.
By virtue of JSE neck alone, Taka becomes a much more appealing offhand thanks to all that Racc. Similarly, Fudo Masamune gains a lot of value when racc matters, evident by it going from a sidegrade to Kanaria without the extra Daken+25 from neck +2, to a substantially better choice when considering the Daken. Also gives some meaningful improvement to Kannagi with all of that AGI, makes Ken+1 gear even more appealing, etc.
I haven't dug into different back options to feature more AGI/Racc quite yet, but I wouldn't be shocked to see similar impact and it's well worth further investigation. Good point, thanks for bringing that up. And great... potentially ANOTHER NIN cape to add to my extensive collection XD
For instance, we'll take a pretty typical high end TP set:
ItemSet 361681
* Melee accuracy: DEX+252 (=Acc+189) + Acc+290
* Ranged accuracy: AGI+235 (=Racc+176) + Racc+253 + Racc+100 (Daken innate bonus)
* Total effective Melee accuracy of 479, Ranged accuracy of 529.
However, Madrigals are a very significant what-if factor, since they can push you from uncapped to capped melee accuracy, but leave ranged accuracy uncapped. Sechs had some good thoughts about how to potentially deal with that.
Quote:
Taka / offhands
Actually... interestingly enough, all of this extra Daken we have with JSE neck has made Taka a stronger potential offhand for non-Kannagi mainhands now, precisely for those situations where you cap melee acc but are uncapped on Daken racc.
For instance, 145CL, same TP set as above with Heishi mainhand, solid Ten set, and the following (substantial) buffs:
BRD: Honor March, Min5, March 2, Mad2 (note that Mad2 is important, since in this case it means capped melee acc and uncapped ranged acc)
GEO: Torpor/Frailty (non-Bolstered Idris values of Eva-100 and DEF -41.8%)
COR: Samurai/Chaos
For Heishi mainhand, I get the following order for offhands:
Fudo (by a lot) > Taka > Kanaria (spreadsheet TA+) > Ochu
If I only change the neck from Ninja Nodowa +2 to Moonlight, no other adjustments, offhand DPS order changes to:
Fudo=Kanaria (sidegrades) > Ochu > Taka
TLDR; this neck piece and the impact of all that Daken from a single piece has actually significantly affected other NIN TP gear considerations.
By virtue of JSE neck alone, Taka becomes a much more appealing offhand thanks to all that Racc. Similarly, Fudo Masamune gains a lot of value when racc matters, evident by it going from a sidegrade to Kanaria without the extra Daken+25 from neck +2, to a substantially better choice when considering the Daken. Also gives some meaningful improvement to Kannagi with all of that AGI, makes Ken+1 gear even more appealing, etc.
Bismarck.Lilmartio said: »
I also found that, in situations where melee acc is capped and racc isn't, which is anything 145+, AGI/Racc/DA or STP backs preform better. Can any of you confirm this?
I haven't dug into different back options to feature more AGI/Racc quite yet, but I wouldn't be shocked to see similar impact and it's well worth further investigation. Good point, thanks for bringing that up. And great... potentially ANOTHER NIN cape to add to my extensive collection XD
Good points Cap. I've definitely added the gear to the spreadsheet.
You're absolutely right that I haven't gone through much of the DW options to see what could be culled or not.
For that, I THANK YOU for your work looking into the options.
In regards to the accuracy comments, I know this goes without saying in the OP, but I would assume that if you're following the OP you're more than likely using a lua based manager for your gearswaps. Whether it is the titular GearSwap or some other method(even itemsets), I assume you are capable of building acc tiers into your gearsets.
With the ability to checkparam/parse/scoreboard and see our acc totals, it's ever easier to know when to adjust our gear swaps. I would HOPE no one would use the MaxHaste set on Wave3 Dynamis mobs.
Personally, I have 4 total acc levels in my GearSwap. Each that grow by ~30 acc more than the last, where the last tier is every piece of acc I can ~feasibly~ muster (losing out on multi attack and stp).
With that said, I would be so thrilled to remove those gross Floral Gauntlets from the OP. :D
I'm going to begin here (With Boshi's mention - as it does have higher DEX and Acc/Racc):
ItemSet 344567
Both this set and yours has a nearly identical BaseTP Rnds, and Base TP Time.
For the Max Set, your proposed set does have a much higher base acc than the posted set. Though it does appear that I had NEVER deleted the dang petrov ring the last time I modified these. I'll be keeping the Max Set here thanks to a lower base TP Rnds/Base TP Time and higher DPS:
ItemSet 344565
You're absolutely right about needing accuracy checks and defensive potentials, and I'd hope people build tiers into their gearsets or hybrid modes. Your sets definitely look like my higher-acc-necessary sets.
It's crazy to think I'm almost willing to put more sets into the OP based on Acc, but then I'd be walking back my situational thoughts from before about attack. Are Acc tiers something we should discuss in the OP? Or let users build them on their own.
Happy to see all the activity.
You're absolutely right that I haven't gone through much of the DW options to see what could be culled or not.
For that, I THANK YOU for your work looking into the options.
In regards to the accuracy comments, I know this goes without saying in the OP, but I would assume that if you're following the OP you're more than likely using a lua based manager for your gearswaps. Whether it is the titular GearSwap or some other method(even itemsets), I assume you are capable of building acc tiers into your gearsets.
With the ability to checkparam/parse/scoreboard and see our acc totals, it's ever easier to know when to adjust our gear swaps. I would HOPE no one would use the MaxHaste set on Wave3 Dynamis mobs.
Personally, I have 4 total acc levels in my GearSwap. Each that grow by ~30 acc more than the last, where the last tier is every piece of acc I can ~feasibly~ muster (losing out on multi attack and stp).
With that said, I would be so thrilled to remove those gross Floral Gauntlets from the OP. :D
I'm going to begin here (With Boshi's mention - as it does have higher DEX and Acc/Racc):
ItemSet 344567
Both this set and yours has a nearly identical BaseTP Rnds, and Base TP Time.
For the Max Set, your proposed set does have a much higher base acc than the posted set. Though it does appear that I had NEVER deleted the dang petrov ring the last time I modified these. I'll be keeping the Max Set here thanks to a lower base TP Rnds/Base TP Time and higher DPS:
ItemSet 344565
You're absolutely right about needing accuracy checks and defensive potentials, and I'd hope people build tiers into their gearsets or hybrid modes. Your sets definitely look like my higher-acc-necessary sets.
It's crazy to think I'm almost willing to put more sets into the OP based on Acc, but then I'd be walking back my situational thoughts from before about attack. Are Acc tiers something we should discuss in the OP? Or let users build them on their own.
Happy to see all the activity.
[+]
I'm a scrub non-lua user, so any accuracy swaps I need are done on the fly with equipsets. But I could see a portion of the OP mentioning a good baseline acc set for certain content, since it's come up a few times.
[+]
Phoenix.Capuchin said: »
For instance, 145CL, same TP set as above with Heishi mainhand, solid Ten set, and the following (substantial) buffs:
BRD: Honor March, Min5, March 2, Mad2 (note that Mad2 is important, since in this case it means capped melee acc and uncapped ranged acc)
GEO: Torpor/Frailty (non-Bolstered Idris values of Eva-100 and DEF -41.8%)
COR: Samurai/Chaos
BRD: Honor March, Min5, March 2, Mad2 (note that Mad2 is important, since in this case it means capped melee acc and uncapped ranged acc)
GEO: Torpor/Frailty (non-Bolstered Idris values of Eva-100 and DEF -41.8%)
COR: Samurai/Chaos
Don't get too bogged down on the spreadsheets 145 numbers. Those were derived years ago, by me. And probably have no basis in game whatsoever these days. :(
If anyone has stats from Wave3 Mobs I would think building targets for Wave3Base mobs and Wave3NM's may not be a bad idea.
[+]
Quetzalcoatl.Langly said: »
Happy to see all the activity.
Yeah, that's kinda my main interest. If people don't care to use my exact sets, my feelings aren't hurt. I just thought it was worth revisiting DW since it had been a while since I saw much consideration of it, and maybe get some discussion going. Plus, we do have some solid newer pieces: particularly Relic +3 body/legs, which give some nice options. And we can finally get rid of Floral Gauntlets (you can pry my Adhemar Wristbands +1 off my cold, dead, Ninja paws... I'll get my DW elsewhere, TYVM).
Quetzalcoatl.Langly said: »
It's crazy to think I'm almost willing to put more sets into the OP based on Acc, but then I'd be walking back my situational thoughts from before about attack. Are Acc tiers something we should discuss in the OP? Or let users build them on their own.
Hah! I feel ya on the set overload, and it's definitely a balancing act between not enough information and too much to digest. I kind of like Buukki's idea of giving some good baseline acc expectations for certain high priority content (e.g., wave 3). Kinda goes along nicely with your excellent idea to get a better handle on wave 3 mobs/NM stats. Would be one of the more practical things to actually use a spreadsheet for to make gear decisions these days.
Quetzalcoatl.Langly said: »
Don't get too bogged down on the spreadsheets 145 numbers. Those were derived years ago, by me. And probably have no basis in game whatsoever these days. :(
Yeah, I'm not necessarily using those numbers as gospel or anything... main point was just coming up with a semi-realistic higher difficulty situation where capped acc/uncapped racc was a reasonable possibility. That did the trick. But I really love the idea of better models for wave 3 targets.
[+]
I've spent at least days constantly searching for Chi sets. The only updated thing I could find I mimicked and I'm not getting 30k to 70k damage like everyone is saying that they are getting. Even all luas I find seem to be outdated gear. Can anyone help point me in the right direction?
Can we just add blade: hybrids set to the main page? This question is asked a couple times a month and it's largely unclear what new ninja should be using.
Mix of WSD/mab/str/int gear
Herculean
Af head
Relic legs
Knobkierrie
Friomisi/ishvara
Neck might be the new neck now assuming capped, otherwise love neck
Regal/epaminondas or ifrit (str)
Cape str wsd
Waist can be carbuncle bcnm or eschan works. Fotia if neither
Fighters, frailty, malaise, chaos, songs.
Mix of WSD/mab/str/int gear
Herculean
Af head
Relic legs
Knobkierrie
Friomisi/ishvara
Neck might be the new neck now assuming capped, otherwise love neck
Regal/epaminondas or ifrit (str)
Cape str wsd
Waist can be carbuncle bcnm or eschan works. Fotia if neither
Fighters, frailty, malaise, chaos, songs.
[+]
Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
I'm a scrub non-lua user, so any accuracy swaps I need are done on the fly with equipsets. But I could see a portion of the OP mentioning a good baseline acc set for certain content, since it's come up a few times.
Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
Can we just add blade: hybrids set to the main page? This question is asked a couple times a month and it's largely unclear what new ninja should be using.
They'd never look at the front *** page, what do you think this is a guide that people actually look at before they ask questions. Pure Fantasy.
They don't even scroll 5 posts up. Let alone go back a whole back. using the first page is blasphemy, that's like a whole extra click, god forbid!
[+]
Asura.Eiryl said: »
Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
Can we just add blade: hybrids set to the main page? This question is asked a couple times a month and it's largely unclear what new ninja should be using.
They'd never look at the front *** page, what do you think this is a guide that people actually look at before they ask questions. Pure Fantasy.
They don't even scroll 5 posts up. Let alone go back a whole back. using the first page is blasphemy, that's like a whole extra click, god forbid!
I went back 20 pages. I have a career outside FFXI. I dont have time to go back and read 100 pages of banter. If you read the first page, you'd know why I'm asking for the hybrid. Everything is outdated everywhere. You google and nothing shows up. Did someone force you to open the forum and force your hands to the keyboard? That's a sad life.
Also thank you, Buukki for the information.
Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
Initial discussion started here with Blade: To
Hybrid discussions
NIN's Hybrid WS are built functionally the same as Tachi: Jinpu, just slightly stronger potential because it has two attribute modifiers vs Jinpu's one
You can do str/int, MAB, wsd on Herc feet, which would generally beat hachiya+3 feet. Mine has wsd+5, mab+23, so it's pretty good for hybrids. Baetyl Pendant can replace Sanctity if you have it. The Leyline hands likely beat Herc hands unless you happen to have been really lucky with MAB+WSD, in which case, the latter wins (there's a DM campaign coming up soon).
Hybrid discussions
NIN's Hybrid WS are built functionally the same as Tachi: Jinpu, just slightly stronger potential because it has two attribute modifiers vs Jinpu's one
Quote:
Sets with a mixture of STR, WSD and MaB are the way to go here. We did exhaustive testing with pure STR and WSD versus MaB and the results were consistently better with an amalgamation of both.
Fotia Belt and Gorget are returning some surprisingly good results.
Hachirin-no-Obi with Windstorm I (or better II) does affect Jinpu's damage. Recommend using it over Fotia Belt when you have the effect up.
Jinpu responds EXTREMELY WELL, like crazy well, to Fighter's Roll (Double Attack). If you have a Geomancer flooring the target's physical defense consider using Samurai/Fighters for your COR rolls. We went from seeing occasional 60-70k Jinpu to very frequent 60-70k Jinpu which, compared against the 35-40k low-end clearly indicated a Double Attack proc. 99999 Jinpu was clearly a Quad. Attack proc from Niqmaddu Ring since Saevel's set didn't have Triple Attack in it.
On that note, can someone with an AG Koga do a side-by-side comparison? TP Bonus from the Dojikiri might put it on equal footing but AM3 on Koga could... could tip the scales in its favor.
Stacking Malaise and Frailty does evil ***to Jinpu. It's very similar to Flaming Crush in that regard.
Fotia Belt and Gorget are returning some surprisingly good results.
Hachirin-no-Obi with Windstorm I (or better II) does affect Jinpu's damage. Recommend using it over Fotia Belt when you have the effect up.
Jinpu responds EXTREMELY WELL, like crazy well, to Fighter's Roll (Double Attack). If you have a Geomancer flooring the target's physical defense consider using Samurai/Fighters for your COR rolls. We went from seeing occasional 60-70k Jinpu to very frequent 60-70k Jinpu which, compared against the 35-40k low-end clearly indicated a Double Attack proc. 99999 Jinpu was clearly a Quad. Attack proc from Niqmaddu Ring since Saevel's set didn't have Triple Attack in it.
On that note, can someone with an AG Koga do a side-by-side comparison? TP Bonus from the Dojikiri might put it on equal footing but AM3 on Koga could... could tip the scales in its favor.
Stacking Malaise and Frailty does evil ***to Jinpu. It's very similar to Flaming Crush in that regard.
You can do str/int, MAB, wsd on Herc feet, which would generally beat hachiya+3 feet. Mine has wsd+5, mab+23, so it's pretty good for hybrids. Baetyl Pendant can replace Sanctity if you have it. The Leyline hands likely beat Herc hands unless you happen to have been really lucky with MAB+WSD, in which case, the latter wins (there's a DM campaign coming up soon).
Bumped
Scratching my head a bit here, and thinking that I must be doing something wrong with my NIN MB set.
I am using the set below, and while I know there are certain upgrades that are crucial (+2/3 relic head, empy hands 119 being the big ones), I am not sure why my San spells are not hitting hard at all on MBs on apex. Both Hyoton and Raiton San are averaging about 6k on Dark/Light SC bursts respectively. Samnuha Coat/Ochu are both a notch below perfect, leyline is perfect augs, herculean legs and feet have MACC +20/MAB+30.
Any thoughts? Is it a resist issue maybe? I can't imagine relic head going from +1 to +2/+3 and empy hands 119 is gonna take my MBs from 6k to 30k+ like I've seen some other NINs doing, but I could be wrong I suppose.
ItemSet 362254
I am using the set below, and while I know there are certain upgrades that are crucial (+2/3 relic head, empy hands 119 being the big ones), I am not sure why my San spells are not hitting hard at all on MBs on apex. Both Hyoton and Raiton San are averaging about 6k on Dark/Light SC bursts respectively. Samnuha Coat/Ochu are both a notch below perfect, leyline is perfect augs, herculean legs and feet have MACC +20/MAB+30.
Any thoughts? Is it a resist issue maybe? I can't imagine relic head going from +1 to +2/+3 and empy hands 119 is gonna take my MBs from 6k to 30k+ like I've seen some other NINs doing, but I could be wrong I suppose.
ItemSet 362254
Set looks fine, but could be a couple things:
Are you using Kanaria in your main hand, and why use it at all? I don't know how MAB is calculated for dual wielders, but perhaps it's not recognizing the magic damage of Ochu initially, but that is unlikely. In any event, I think Kanaria is useless for MBing unless you happen to have a really awesome DM MBB/MB/MAB augment I don't know about. Try swapping Ochu to your main hand (unless set just posted it in this order) and see if that makes a difference (it shouldn't but hey)
Are you certain you're not getting caught in a FC set though? I'm a vanilla user, and when I first started messing around with MB sets, I would notice that my bursts would be pathetically low. Turns out my set was going off too fast for vanilla to change from FC precast to MB midcast. I solved it by adding a <wait> in between macro trigger and set swaps.
Try casting using your MAB set directly from the spell list on the monster the moment the MB goes off to confirm you're not just getting casting san/ni before your mab set can swap over in time.
Other factors:
Is your Ninjutsu capped?
Is someone else MBing before you?
What target are you fighting?
How many merits in Hyoton/Raiton (san) do you have, and what group1 merits do you have (it should be the same elements)
How much Magic Burst Bonus do you have besides Ochu/+10 rings, +8 body (by my count,t hats only 31% magic burst bonus which doesn't even meet the cap)
6k is very low, so it's either a resist issue, or your macro is firing off in the wrong set. Also, as far as I can tell, unless you're having issues with macc, 109 hands may be better for damage vs Leyline. Have you seen any spike damage outliers that would indicate your MB could just be getting resisted?
Try 10 nukes normally without MB, then try 10 MBs. If they are all the same damage and none of them are unusually high, then it might not be macc and might be some other factor. Try casting the same spells in a higher macc set and see if that helps the damage. If it goes up a bunch, then you know it's macc.
You can also upgrade hachiya kyahan +3 for +10 burst bonus, a hefty macc upgrade and a decent amount of MAB. Again, outside of gahlike MBB augment from DM, I don't see Herculean feet beating the bonus that AF feet provide, since it covers all nuking areas in one shot and gives you a good burst number towards the cap.
Are you using Kanaria in your main hand, and why use it at all? I don't know how MAB is calculated for dual wielders, but perhaps it's not recognizing the magic damage of Ochu initially, but that is unlikely. In any event, I think Kanaria is useless for MBing unless you happen to have a really awesome DM MBB/MB/MAB augment I don't know about. Try swapping Ochu to your main hand (unless set just posted it in this order) and see if that makes a difference (it shouldn't but hey)
Are you certain you're not getting caught in a FC set though? I'm a vanilla user, and when I first started messing around with MB sets, I would notice that my bursts would be pathetically low. Turns out my set was going off too fast for vanilla to change from FC precast to MB midcast. I solved it by adding a <wait> in between macro trigger and set swaps.
Try casting using your MAB set directly from the spell list on the monster the moment the MB goes off to confirm you're not just getting casting san/ni before your mab set can swap over in time.
Other factors:
Is your Ninjutsu capped?
Is someone else MBing before you?
What target are you fighting?
How many merits in Hyoton/Raiton (san) do you have, and what group1 merits do you have (it should be the same elements)
How much Magic Burst Bonus do you have besides Ochu/+10 rings, +8 body (by my count,t hats only 31% magic burst bonus which doesn't even meet the cap)
6k is very low, so it's either a resist issue, or your macro is firing off in the wrong set. Also, as far as I can tell, unless you're having issues with macc, 109 hands may be better for damage vs Leyline. Have you seen any spike damage outliers that would indicate your MB could just be getting resisted?
Try 10 nukes normally without MB, then try 10 MBs. If they are all the same damage and none of them are unusually high, then it might not be macc and might be some other factor. Try casting the same spells in a higher macc set and see if that helps the damage. If it goes up a bunch, then you know it's macc.
You can also upgrade hachiya kyahan +3 for +10 burst bonus, a hefty macc upgrade and a decent amount of MAB. Again, outside of gahlike MBB augment from DM, I don't see Herculean feet beating the bonus that AF feet provide, since it covers all nuking areas in one shot and gives you a good burst number towards the cap.
[+]
All good tips as always from you Buukki thanks!
The Ochu is offhand so I can definitely try moving that over to main to see if that makes a difference. I am using gearswap and made sure my set was swapping in properly via equip viewer so it shouldn't be a wrong-set issue but I can try locking into my MB set and see if there is a difference. Like we said, 6k is stupid low so something must be off somewhere.
Targets are apex bats/crabs in Dho.
Ninjutsu capped.
Solo so no one else is MBing. (doing this purely as a test)
Besides Ochu, MB bonuses are coming from: Samnuha coat, Mujin Band, Locus Ring for a total of 31% MB Bonus.
The Ochu is offhand so I can definitely try moving that over to main to see if that makes a difference. I am using gearswap and made sure my set was swapping in properly via equip viewer so it shouldn't be a wrong-set issue but I can try locking into my MB set and see if there is a difference. Like we said, 6k is stupid low so something must be off somewhere.
Targets are apex bats/crabs in Dho.
Ninjutsu capped.
Solo so no one else is MBing. (doing this purely as a test)
Besides Ochu, MB bonuses are coming from: Samnuha coat, Mujin Band, Locus Ring for a total of 31% MB Bonus.
Sounds like a resist then. Try Malevolence in place of Kanaria since it's not giving you much of a bonus. Put Ochu in Main, sub Malev. If damage is still very low, weapon test isn't the issue.
That's not a bad number for MBB, but I'm nearly convinced you're just hitting the resist wall and that's why you're not landing anything impressive. Ninja has an inherent macc problem with ninjutsu. It doesn't get anything impressive in the form of Macc outside of your gear and gifts, so you really have to strike that balance between macc, mab, and mbb. Otherwise you'll get nothing but duds.
I'd say cast cornelia and re-attempt the tests, but she's gone. So find you a geomancer to languor/focus and see if that improves the damage a bit. Other option is to replace your Herculean gear with Mummu+2, replace rings with macc rings, and see what the damage looks like (an increase confirms its a macc problem). Eve in a non-MB set just doing normal nukes, with Futae, I can hit 15k. Without, around 8k. So to be hitting 6k burst, you might be overdoing the MBB stat and undervaluing the macc stat
Quote:
Targets are apex bats/crabs in Dho.
Ninjutsu capped.
Solo so no one else is MBing. (doing this purely as a test)
Besides Ochu, MB bonuses are coming from: Samnuha coat, Mujin Band, Locus Ring for a total of 31% MB Bonus.
Ninjutsu capped.
Solo so no one else is MBing. (doing this purely as a test)
Besides Ochu, MB bonuses are coming from: Samnuha coat, Mujin Band, Locus Ring for a total of 31% MB Bonus.
That's not a bad number for MBB, but I'm nearly convinced you're just hitting the resist wall and that's why you're not landing anything impressive. Ninja has an inherent macc problem with ninjutsu. It doesn't get anything impressive in the form of Macc outside of your gear and gifts, so you really have to strike that balance between macc, mab, and mbb. Otherwise you'll get nothing but duds.
I'd say cast cornelia and re-attempt the tests, but she's gone. So find you a geomancer to languor/focus and see if that improves the damage a bit. Other option is to replace your Herculean gear with Mummu+2, replace rings with macc rings, and see what the damage looks like (an increase confirms its a macc problem). Eve in a non-MB set just doing normal nukes, with Futae, I can hit 15k. Without, around 8k. So to be hitting 6k burst, you might be overdoing the MBB stat and undervaluing the macc stat
I just want to point out that you can also replace one of those MBB rings for Shiva Ring+1 for a good INT bonus that will up your damage. And I didn't catch what your cape augments were. They should be
INT20/30
MACC20/30
(you pick which to prioritize)
MAB+10
INT20/30
MACC20/30
(you pick which to prioritize)
MAB+10
Re: the above nukey discussion, while Lunafreya's set certainly isn't perfect, it's not BAD and the gear choices are sensible enough. This isn't a matter of such massively awful gear that you can totally fix nuke damage with a few swapped pieces, but more a matter of NIN MB kinda sucking without getting magic buffs in most cases. And you obviously aren't getting magic buffs while soloing Apex with trusts.
That being said, for gear:
1) Macc IS important, and that set does look like it's going to get a lot of resists on remotely serious content just due to lacking enough Macc. In general, for NIN nuking whenever I have an option, I tend to err the side of more Macc any time I'm not completely sure about resists (which is most of the time). That's true even for stuff like lower end Apex mobs, assuming you aren't getting GEO buffs, frazzle, etc. I'd make some swaps to more Macc-oriented pieces - Mummu legs, Dignitary's Earring, Yamarang... might even want to go with Macc rings. Extra MBB doesn't mean much when you're regularly getting 50%+ resists.
2) JSE stuff: (a) Empy 119 hands really are great, get em as a priority if you care at all about NIN nukes, (b) Mochizuki +2/+3 head is excellent too, and the +2 really shouldn't be that expensive these days. (c) Hachiya+3 feet - get em, love em, enjoy using them for enfeebling Ninjutsu as well; there's no reason not to upgrade them as one of the top two NIN AF priorities (along wtih WSD+10% head, of course).
3) For weapons: I also find that mainhand RMEA (and offhand Divergence katana, whether Fudo Masamune or lower, like the HQ1 Mochizuki katana) are reeeeeealy helpful for Macc. With mainhand RMEA/offhand Fudo, I've even found myself having a noticeably easier time sticking enfeebles on lots of current endgame content where I definitely would have struggled more in the past. If no RMEA, I get the choice of mainhand Kanaria & offhand Ochu, since with decent Kanaria augments that's likely a top melee damage setup. If you're gearing primarily for MBs, Ochu x2... but if not, you're likely better off focusing on melee damage and considering your nuke damage as merely a bonus.
FWIW,I tend to default to the following set. The only real swaps I regularly make are (1) giving up Macc for MBB/MAB options in ring slots, and (2) offhanding an Ochu. In both cases, that's if I'm fighting something so trivial (or with enough buffs) that I know I'm capped.
ItemSet 362282
That being said, for gear:
1) Macc IS important, and that set does look like it's going to get a lot of resists on remotely serious content just due to lacking enough Macc. In general, for NIN nuking whenever I have an option, I tend to err the side of more Macc any time I'm not completely sure about resists (which is most of the time). That's true even for stuff like lower end Apex mobs, assuming you aren't getting GEO buffs, frazzle, etc. I'd make some swaps to more Macc-oriented pieces - Mummu legs, Dignitary's Earring, Yamarang... might even want to go with Macc rings. Extra MBB doesn't mean much when you're regularly getting 50%+ resists.
2) JSE stuff: (a) Empy 119 hands really are great, get em as a priority if you care at all about NIN nukes, (b) Mochizuki +2/+3 head is excellent too, and the +2 really shouldn't be that expensive these days. (c) Hachiya+3 feet - get em, love em, enjoy using them for enfeebling Ninjutsu as well; there's no reason not to upgrade them as one of the top two NIN AF priorities (along wtih WSD+10% head, of course).
3) For weapons: I also find that mainhand RMEA (and offhand Divergence katana, whether Fudo Masamune or lower, like the HQ1 Mochizuki katana) are reeeeeealy helpful for Macc. With mainhand RMEA/offhand Fudo, I've even found myself having a noticeably easier time sticking enfeebles on lots of current endgame content where I definitely would have struggled more in the past. If no RMEA, I get the choice of mainhand Kanaria & offhand Ochu, since with decent Kanaria augments that's likely a top melee damage setup. If you're gearing primarily for MBs, Ochu x2... but if not, you're likely better off focusing on melee damage and considering your nuke damage as merely a bonus.
FWIW,I tend to default to the following set. The only real swaps I regularly make are (1) giving up Macc for MBB/MAB options in ring slots, and (2) offhanding an Ochu. In both cases, that's if I'm fighting something so trivial (or with enough buffs) that I know I'm capped.
ItemSet 362282
[+]
Thanks Cap that is really helpful. I am actually upgrading empy hands to 119 at the moment, and going to start working on cards for feet +2. Also swapped Mummu legs/feet in and did some testing with 109 hands, and was able to break 10k with Futae up (this was also solo) so that was encouraging.
I do think it's largely a matter of having zero buffs. If I can convince a friend to come out on GEO I can do some real testing.
I do think it's largely a matter of having zero buffs. If I can convince a friend to come out on GEO I can do some real testing.
Does Fudo Masamune attack buff work on offhand? (eg, ATK+15 per shadow up)
Phoenix.Capuchin said: »
Hey, so... I managed to get my hands on the HQ1 Divergence Katana (Mochizuki Shinobi-gatana), and can confirm with my own /checkparam verification that the Divergence weapons' accuracy AND the Atk+ per shadow apply to BOTH hands even when offhanding the Divergence weapon.
Phoenix.Capuchin said: »
Yep, I have Fudo Masamune and Mochizuki Shinobi-gatana. Atk+ from offhanding them definitely applies to both a different mainhand (e.g., RMEA) and the offhand weapon.
[+]
ItemSet 362403
Blade: Not Metsu(Ten)
Any suggestions on improvement other than legs?
Herc body is att/acc 6 WSD10
Herc hands CHR6 WSD10
Herc Feet att/acc7 WSD7
Herc Legs STR7 att22 acc 8 WSD4
Andartia's is metsu dex30 wsd
Kanaria is DEX14 att16 acc 18 WSD2
When I put it in spreadsheet I got ifrits winning but I'm assuming its because the STR
Blade: Not Metsu(Ten)
Any suggestions on improvement other than legs?
Herc body is att/acc 6 WSD10
Herc hands CHR6 WSD10
Herc Feet att/acc7 WSD7
Herc Legs STR7 att22 acc 8 WSD4
Andartia's is metsu dex30 wsd
Kanaria is DEX14 att16 acc 18 WSD2
When I put it in spreadsheet I got ifrits winning but I'm assuming its because the STR
Nice WSD augments on herc, but missing a ton of acc. I'm still jelly.
Probably: Hizamaru Hiyaroi +2 beats those legs.
Apate Ring might win over Ifrit+1 (might), definitely when attack capped
for Ten, STR better than DEX cape. For inventory saver, *thumbsup*
Capped Ochu beats that Kanaria probably? Check it out.
Probably: Hizamaru Hiyaroi +2 beats those legs.
Apate Ring might win over Ifrit+1 (might), definitely when attack capped
for Ten, STR better than DEX cape. For inventory saver, *thumbsup*
Capped Ochu beats that Kanaria probably? Check it out.
I totally forgot about hizamaru lol.
I just bought another cape specifically for 30STR just been too lazy to actually do it.
Dont actually have a capped Ochu yetwas going to try for a STR15 WSD kanaria for it but this one still helps the 30% dex mod on it just would be less attack if the stat was STR anyway.
I figured since the STR mod is so low that the WSD 2 DEX14 would still do pretty well vs ochu. 26 attack 2 WSD vs 22 STR DEX 8
edit: yeah just realized I was talking capped attack so the kanaria attack doesnt really matter, somehow got ochu max winning by like 700 dps
I just bought another cape specifically for 30STR just been too lazy to actually do it.
Dont actually have a capped Ochu yetwas going to try for a STR15 WSD kanaria for it but this one still helps the 30% dex mod on it just would be less attack if the stat was STR anyway.
I figured since the STR mod is so low that the WSD 2 DEX14 would still do pretty well vs ochu. 26 attack 2 WSD vs 22 STR DEX 8
edit: yeah just realized I was talking capped attack so the kanaria attack doesnt really matter, somehow got ochu max winning by like 700 dps
Whats your acc in this. Looks really low.
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