The Sealed Dagger: A Ninja Guide

no reason not to use what you have in the meantime, though. i wouldn't go out of my way to get new augmented gear, but if it's something you have laying around, why not?

https://www.dropbox.com/s/8u4mlly3z9dn1wg/DPS%20Calculator%20-%20Ninja%20WSDMG.xlsx?dl=0

Contains PDL for main hand/off hand from Nin neck.
Contains WSDMG on all hits
Contains Fudo Masamune FollowUp 50% (see if I really hooped that)

Doesn't change how I feel about Heishi/Kannagi. Fudo does not look attractive as a main hand unless you're tanking. :\

I don't like to be this guy but is it possible to add Honor March and +8/+9 Mins/Mads?

nothin wrong with askin. :)

I noticed that the other day, I never finished making the toggles for GEO work. And the BRD buffs are still gimp.

I'll see what I can do.

To some extent, that's not the worst news... won't feel like you need multiple Fudos. Having one for offhand is nice, and can double as a new best mainhand tanking weapon. I mean, unless you really wanted a Subtle Blow +75 NIN for some reason (at the presumed expense of some DPS).

I made mine C path... now to hope we don't discover some new awesomeness about A/B paths that makes me regret my decision and need to save more gil for another one.


First off, thanks for cleaning it up, Langly! And now for DEMANDS while you're in there making further tweaks to the community-linked sheet... ;)

Karieyh Ring/+1 and Epaminondas's Ring are worth adding. They do pretty well these days, and may be worth WSing in depending on WS/sets/buffs/targets (WSD rings are looking especially strong for Shun).

COR values are also kinda... I'm not sure why they are what they are, but for spreadsheet purposes they are very much a loose approximation. It's hard since there is so much variation with different roll values, job bonuses, and Crooked Cards, but perhaps something like implementing a toggle for Phantom Roll +5 (Barataria), +7(Regal Necklace), +8 (Rostam) values on an XI roll would be a way to go. Currently, I tend to assume +7, XI roll, no Crooked.

Added Honor March (Fixed old March Values)
Added both rings.

Adjusted the COR values to more closely reflect a 'higher average' on rolls (Something closer to between Lucky/XI with +7).
These values are completely adjustable by typing into those green boxes, they are not governed by any rules~ I think i'll just leave them for anyone else to modify if they so choose. :)

Thanks for the input Cap! Happy to oblige.

Edit: For those of you wanting these changes, redownload it as of 11:30 Central. I fixed the base values for minuets and madrigals while adding honor march.(they were using old lower values)

Dropbox Nin Spreadsheet

I'll update page 1. (easy to reverse WSDMG changes if they do roll that back)

Yes but I'm not playin NIN these days (Q_Q) and patch will be in a few days, I'd rather not mess up my Lua and have to change it back again.
Patch is just like what, 1 week away?

Also tbh I don't have any WSD aug Herc, I don't have the +3 Relic legs, only things I realistically have are a STR/WSD cape an AGI/WSD cape, AF+3 head and Ambu+2 legs. Think I already use those pieces in my (most of?) WS sets regardless of the WSD change.
Been tryin to get WSD on Herc Feet on the past FIVE DM campaign, but no luck alas.

What proof do you have that they are patching wsd on multi hit? Did they acknowledge this in a bug report?

Imagine the assumption is itll be patched on the next vers update, the thread was moved to accepted bugs last i looked

One thing that may be simple for you guys is just make a WSD weaponskill toggle, just so you dont have to change everything around in GS and then they patch it out next week or something

Accepted bugs can simply mean they acknowledged receipt of the report. But if it's changed, only a few items in WS set that show be adjusted

Dont get me wrong, Metsu is still the absolute best ws in this game, but w/ the Heishi augments cant remember if 10% or 15% on shun hits, would it possibly keep up w/ Ten? This is including the damage from AM self sc.

Shun for me by far is the weakest/tied w/ Blade Hi, Ten is just naturally better because sharing the bestu WS set

edit: 10% WSD on aeonic, boshi corrected me

Three things:

1) It doesn't seem to me that Shun is as bad as you make it sound, as bad as Hi
2) Hi surely got much better thanks to recent gear (Mummu+2, for instance)
3) I doubt the 10% bonus from Heishi makes Shun THAT much better, altough of course it's surely a welcome change


All of this imho of course.

I'm just saying from my numbers, and again my best sets favor single hit WSD although I think my shun set is respectable its def the worst one for me unless my attack is garbage

Shun get an attack bonus, it's consistent when you don't have a ton of buffs, but it does not compete with Ten when properly supported. My Shuns during max buffs hit somewhere around 12-18k (pre wsd update, havent checked since). My Tens hit 22-28k, upwards of 32k periodically. I don't think Shun comes close, if anything, Metsu with +20% WSD augment comes closer to Ten, but you wouldn't bother with Ten if you have Kikoku anyways.

Blade: Hi has always been garbage for me, never better than Shun. But I rarely use it, so maybe its better in a max set.

A few comments on the spreadsheet (Langly's most current version as of the time of this post) and sets on page 1:

1) Mochizuki +2/+3 body stats on the spreadsheet need a minor edit to express Daken as 5%/10% (was getting reflected at Daken+500/1000%). Though the error is simple to fix, there's obviously a major impact on results ;)

2) DW sets on the original page need some real clean-up and probably haven't been closely considered in some time. These old sets also contain some kinda outdated gear like Floral Gauntlets and Hizamaru +2 feet (both of which are a significant DPS loss over upgrading to a better overall set these days) or Reiki Yotai (which might work OK in some sets but generally isn't optimal). The sets lack some of the newer good DW pieces, particularly reforged relic body/legs, no DW+10 Ambuscade cape, no Eabani earring.

I'd suggest the following updated sets:

0% Haste Received; needs 38~39 DW to cap delay reduction
ItemSet 361974
Total DW: 39
* Andartia: DW+10, DEX, Acc/Atk

15% Haste Received (i.e., Haste 1 only); needs ~32 DW to cap delay reduction
ItemSet 361975
Total DW: 32
* Andartia: STP+10 (or DA+10%), DEX, Acc/Atk
* If you happen to have Haverton Ring +1, can use that instead of Hetairoi and replace Suppa with a non-DW ear for a modest overall improvement.

30% Haste Received (i.e., Haste 2 only); needs 20~21 DW to cap delay reduction
ItemSet 361976
Total DW: 20
* Andartia: STP+10 (or DA+10%), DEX, Acc/Atk
* Some room to play with accessories here, mixing and matching Eabani, Reiki, Haverton +1 can make some relatively close sets (though the above generally spreadsheeted best for me); Hachiya+3 legs are also a potential option that may fit based on the options available to you.
* Mochi+3 body/Eabani (and slightly overcapping DW, at 22%) ends up very close to Adhemar+1/Suppa and might be an option for some.

Capped haste: no DW necessary
ItemSet 361977
* Andartia STP/DEX (though I have used DA/DEX since it's so close and has doubled as my Shun cape... will needle it though, if the WSD changes from last month persist)
* On anything of consquence, I find Kendatsuba +1 legs/feet to beat Samnuha/Herc, so unless I'm fighting completely trivial content that's my default.
* Kendatsuba +1 head is a pretty small dropoff from Adhemar Bonnet +1 too, and even hands are a rather modest difference (especially when also losing the Adhemar+1 set bonus), so it's certainly viable to go 5/5 Ken+1 for the defensive perks (Meva/HP/Eva) while still maintaining near BiS offense.
* Ilabrat/Hetairoi are very close, so I tend to switch to Ilabrat when I'm fighting stuff where I expect I may not always be capped acc and/or atk.

Personally, I don't bother maintaining a 35% set (Haste II plus /DNC Haste Samba)... but if you did, you'd need 15~16 DW to cap. Prob best to get that through something like Adhemar Jacket+1 plus Ryuo Somen +1, and otherwise use your capped haste set.

3) Re: the above DW stuff as it relates to the spreadsheet:
Ryuo+1 head on spreadsheet is showing incorrect stats (DW+8%, not the real 9%). Eabani, DW Andartia, and Haverton/+1 might be worth adding to the gear list (I did on my saved copy).

4) Dedition Earring shows up on lots of sets, but is often not really that great thanks to the Acc-10/Racc-10. Unless you're fighting trash and definitely capping acc AND racc (Daken, which is getting more and more important to consider), there's a very good chance this isn't worth it - usually true for me on anything of consequence, and more likely some mix of 2 of Brutal Telos Cessance will perform better.


Huh? With WSD applying to all hits, Shun is now the one that shares more of a set with Metsu: DEX/WSD. Previously, Shun and Metsu had some significant differences due to WSD helping Metsu but doing very little for Shun. For Ten, you'd ideally go STR/WSD, although DEX/WSD is still pretty good (and generally 2nd best wherever that's a choice).

As Buukki mentioned, Shun also greatly varies based on how well you're getting buffed. As for Hi, it obviously performs far better with Kannagi (AGI+), to the point where it will be lackluster enough on other mainhands that you probably wouldn't use it without Kannagi unless (a) you happen to need a Gravitation option and (b) Ten is bad due to very low buffs. But also as Buukki said, if you are using Kikoku, you're likely using Metsu's Darkness properties for those kind of SC situations anyway.

The best flip to the original dw39 set is going x2 earring and switching hands to adehamr+1.

Luna is 1/2 trolling you guys with the Metsu talk.

The legs over belt is an aweful idea.
belt->reiki is like the best dw value vs other dps stats of all the gear.
If you're in an acc set with an acc belt the belt is an even better flip.
What's point of legs flip -at all- if you don't need acc also.

Cape vs feet is pretty damn close

ItemSet 361979

This is 40/39 DW, I dont know how much STP you're losing by being 1 over but its 25 STP over that 0 haste set, cape is DEXSTP accatt meva

Also as much as I dont like to admit it never getting mochi body winning, havent thought about it w/ the daken bonus as I havent even sheeted the neck in yet but still probably loses to adhemar

We can agree to disagree on some of these things, and I personally find Reiki rather overrated.

But we can definitely all agree Floral Gauntlets have got to go, and honestly I'd be very hard pressed to be comfortable suggesting Hiza+2 feet as a top option (though they're a decent piece for a NIN who is returning or gearing for current endgame). Glad to see some current discussion at least, since it was overdue.

***EDIT***
I compared Boshi's suggested 0 haste set (Adhemar +1 hands, both DW ears, otherwise same as OP) to the one I posted above, and it's a ~10dps difference (~0.2%) on trivial content in favor of Boshi's set - using Apex Leech as target. The sets are pretty much sidegrades on lower tier content, even with changes to buffs/mainhand (I was using Kannagi), etc.

However, change that to harder level targets, and the more difficult the enemy (and the less offensive buffs you may have, in case you need Wilt, don't have a COR, the Luopon gets destroyed, whatever) the better my set performs. My set also gives more opportunity to swap in potentially valuable acc gear in the belt and ear slots, which widens the gap even further on hard content. For instance, with BRD Atk/Acc buffs + COR atk/STP buffs only (took GEO buffs off in my main comparisons while messing around to get a general idea of things), I was getting my set pulling ahead by over 17% over Boshi's. And that's before adjusting to add more acc in my gear, which I have more flexibility to do.

Obviously changes to buffs based on those harder situations would also have an impact, but the point is that the harder the content, the better the set I proposed generally performs. I err on the side of sets that are better optimized for stuff that matters (especially when they're still sidegrades even on lower end content), so I'll keep advocating for the set I originally suggested.

awesome information Capuchin, thank you very much for this.

Now I've just got to figure out weaponskill sets ><

Those are pretty good on the OP! Slight variations based on particular buffs/targets, but for the most part the OP is right on as far as WS goes... pending stuff like seeing if the WSD change from September persists after the October update (would affect Shun in particular).

Daken bonus on Mochi body is pretty irrelvant, as it's just additional ranged attack based on # of Sange merits.. and who cares how puny shuriken white damage, Daken is really all about TP generation. What is more relevant on relic body is the additional Daken+10 rate, and the high Racc/AGI to get more Daken procs that actually connect. EDIT: uh, yeah. see below.

Similar to considerations for some other gear choices like Su3 Kendatsuba set, Fudo Masamune, Ilabrat ring, etc... Racc actually has a more significant impact now than it has in the past, to make the most out of actually landing those Daken procs and generating TP. At least when we're talking about harder content, where it's easier to cap melee accuracy than it is to cap ranged.

JSE Neck +1/+2 does make this even more of a consideration these days though, since it adds an whole bunch of additional Daken rate.

That's what he meant by Daken bonus. He didn't say Sange, which is the augment portion. He was specifically talking about the activation on it. Daken <> Sange. Sange is activated via JA, so those merits only work during the JAs duration. The merits don't work for normal Daken procs.

Yeah, that! The "bonus" wording is what threw me, made me think of the augment stat on relic armor. At any rate, the Daken+10 does make up for some of Mochizuki Chainmail's lack of multiattack/STP, and very high Acc/Atk/Racc are helpful on more difficult stuff. It's not a bad DW option, and relatively cheap as relic+3 pieces go.

Yes what the buukinator said.
Sorry I understand that bonus could be referring to the "bonus" of the sange augment but yeah I was referring to the +daken on the body.

It would be neat if with the neck AF +3 hands and relic +3 body became worthwhile I think buukki mentioned it a few pages back and boshi reminds me once a week that I'm wrong about it lmao

I feel like this set only applies to Kannagi users. Kiko, Heishi, and other users even with 5/5 Kendatsuba +1 have a hard time trying to cap RACC when fighting anything 145+. Heishi and Kiko users have to sacrifice so much just to be cap RACC to the point where you're just killing overall DPS when trying. Which is why the OP has things like Dedition as BiS.

OP doesn't give any regard to acc or atk, that's why

That logic doesn't make much sense. Kannagi gets a little more Racc than Heishi and Kikoku thanks to AGI, so... ignore Racc when using Heishi and Kikoku? Use Acc-/Racc- earring on 145+ when you're probably not capping MELEE hit rate, much less ranged?

More Racc = extra Daken TP on any of the weapons, and it's really not hard to get good Racc on lots of our good normal melee TP pieces. And the more Daken we get (like the shiny new +25 neck, giving a total of Daken+79 for a 2000JP+ NIN), the more benefit we see from TP pieces that also happen to have a lot of Racc. Heck, something like Heishi skews more heavily toward the WS side of the WS/white damage split, so more Daken procs landing just means more WS where you can maximize the weapon's strengths.

To break it down a bit for the important TP gear featuring strong Racc (and all of this is true regardless of mainhand):
(a) There's really no reasonable debate that Ken/+1 body, Adhemar+1 hands, Ninja Nodowa +1/+2, Telos Earring are good in pretty much all realistic endgame NIN TP situations.
(b) When you fight harder targets (and not even necessarily the absolutely highest end stuff), Fudo Masamune, Ken+1 legs/feet and Ilabrat Ring are fairly generally accepted as very good (if someone disagrees, step right up) and at least in the conversation for BiS pieces - mostly due the melee acc, or stuff like TA/STP, but all of these also happen to be very high end Racc gear as well.
(c) Ken+1 head/hands are also viable TP options, particularly if you care about the defensive benefits (which may well be the case on top end content); they aren't a huge offensive drop-off from the Adhemar+1 pieces you'd probably use in less demanding situations. They also have superb Racc, in addition to the Acc/HP/Meva/TA. Personally, I use Adhemar +1 head/hands in my default TP set, but 5/5 Ken+1 on my high acc set.

Also, don't forget that Daken procs get an inherent Racc bonus, AFAIK that's believed to be Racc+100. That won't show up on /checkparam.


Austar is, of course, correct that stuff like Dedition (and even, to a lesser extent, things like Samnuha Tights and perhaps Hetaroi Ring) are on the main OP sets because those have assumed capped acc/atk. As always, personal call as to whether that's a sensible decision. If you're trying to fight Wave 3 divergence mobs as effectively as possible, it sure as hell isn't. If you're optimizing for stuff at the level of Omen trash mobs or below, then yeah, you're probably safe assuming capped most of the time.

For me, I tend to shoot for default sets that would be best for somewhat challenging current endgame content. Though yeah, I do maintain a more low-mid range set and a heavier acc set. If pieces come out to be sidegrade-ish on low ilevel content but one pulls away on more difficult stuff, I'll tend to go with the one that performs better on the hard stuff as my default choice across the board - I'd rather be sure I have it when I really need it, even if I that requires accepting slightly worse spreadsheet DPS when fighting trivial content. I don't really see the point anyway in optimizing for... Low end Apex mobs? Delve level? That stuff is going to die so fast that tweaking builds to squeeze out a few more DPS is really quite irrelevant.

To the point of Racc remember you can mix up buffs.
Realistically nobody is gonna do it for lolNINs but in some circustances it can be viable to swap stuff around.

For instance have a GEO use Indi-Torpor instead of Indi-Fury and swap 2 Madrigals for Minuet 5 and 4, which is not the same as Fury but you get what I'm tryin to say.
Likewise something similar can be done with COR, with Hunter's Roll.

Madrigals, sadly, provide only a big amount of static (non percentile) melee accuracy, no racc at all.
Honor March thankfully provide both.
Hunter's Roll too provides both.
The same applies to precision but I feel you rarely use precision these days.
Torpor, being a -Eva debuff on target, indirectly provides both as well.


The difference in this setup could be small enough to justify it (even if just for more enjoyment from your fellow LS members playin NIN).
According to the combination of buffs the loss of either fury/chaos but gaining 2x Minuets in return might not be that big.
At 1250 base attack you would get ~2800 att with Fury+Chaos and ~2700 att with just one of them but Minu4+5, for instance.

The problem with this is more in the melee accuracy side.
You're trading ~200 melee accuracy (madrigalx2) for ~100 Melee&Ranged accuracy (Torpor or Precision or Hunter's Roll)
Not a big deal for Wave1 and Wave2 (for which you wouldn't be using 2x Madrigals to begin with) and likely not a big deal for Wave3 megabosses either.
Potentially a big issue for Wave3 Fomors though, especially the evasive ones like RUN, PUP, NIN and THF.

I wonder... the accuracy bonus granted by Innin, does it grant only acc or acc+racc? Has anybody ever tested it?
It didn't use to matter before Daken but, you know what I mean. Don't seem to remember anybody testing it.

Bet it's just melee acc =/