The Sealed Dagger: A Ninja Guide

Is it even the best at being the worst?

Not even this, Nagi is (Impossible to Gauge).

Man this is old..

Nooo....

Isn't SE supposed to shut down all those AC burned Aeonics and righteously avenge those few heroic individuals who chose to deny using Aeonics. Weren't players supposed to break down and wail in the streets of Jeuno while the elite few smugly gloated on the forums.

How are your guys magic bursts looking?

I hit 64k Hyotan San on Plouton (Futae/Buffs/Innin) and a 26k/27k/29k Katon Ni on Dazzling Delores (No Buffs except Futae, Yonin Up)

My set still needs work as far as augs.


I still need better augs, and I need to +3 my mask.

Weapons are Aeonic/SR Katana.


I was also wondering, does Ninja Tool Expertise proc on the precast or midcast?

Never really get to test it against anything of note or with buffs, but this is my set:

ammo="Ghastly Tathlum +1",
head={ name="Mochi. Hatsuburi +3", augments={'Increases elem. ninjutsu III damage',}},
ear1="Hermetic Earring",
ear2="Static Earring", --5%
neck="Incanter's Torque",
body="Samnuha Coat",
hands={ name="Herculean Gloves", augments={'"Dbl.Atk."+2','CHR+4','Magic burst dmg.+15%',}}, --15%
back=gear.mag_cape,
ring1="Locus Ring", --5%
ring2="Mujin Ring",
waist="Cimmerian sash",
legs="Gyve Trousers",
feet="Hachiya kyahan +3" --10%
--7% trait
--42% mbb 26%mbbII 66% total, 40% needed

typically I offhand perf. Ochu. My sammy coat has perf. augs as well.

It's of note that Ninjutsu can't be partially resisted, and bursts already have a macc bonus - so once you have enough to land it, the rest is all just about dmg.

So... ran Kei and did not so hot w/that set. Looks like macc affects ninjutsu dmg as well... could've sworn wiki said something about no reistance but w/e
Swapped out Gyvre trousers for Mummu +2 and ate pear crepe for a second run and did drastically better. Buffs were thunderstorm and Innin. Malaise was on Kei as well. Ni bursts were 7K-ish and san bursts were 16K-ish. Got a few 30k+ bursts when futae was up

https://www.dropbox.com/s/8zru85vm3ml54w4/img_20180816_202913.png?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/583iov1zgjo8mcm/img_20180816_203258.png?dl=0

Just to be clear... it's kinda neat that NIN can tack on the occasional magic burst for CP, solo, whatever...

But if you're in a party on an NM, a non-futae 7k~16k-ish MB (even with a set that's pretty strong, like hushmonkey's) is likely hurting the alliance more than helping it if you have 2 nuking mages - BLM SCH RDM GEO - since you're contributing to the elemental damage resist wall for repeated same-element nukes on NMs. Better off not interfering with the mages who can nuke better than you can. For something like Kei, I'd be kinda shocked if people weren't bringing a couple real mages who would appreciate it to not see a NIN dropping a 7k MB that reduces their nukes by more than the damage the NIN is adding.


Perhaps you got it mixed up with potency for ninjutsu enfeebles, which doesn't vary based on MND/INT like mage spells. From BGwiki (emphasis mine):


A few (relatively minor) improvement suggestions:

Ranged/Ammo: Yamarang (unless you're completely sure you don't need Macc) > Pemphredo Tathlum > Ghastly +1.

Earrings: If you need Static for MBB+40% that makes sense. If not, or for second earring, I'd typically suggest (a) Dignitary's Earring on anything with decent chance of resists (prob most current "endgame") or (b) Friomisi if you're truly confident that Macc is OK. I guess Hermetic kinda splits the difference with good Macc and a little bit of MAB, put personally I'd rather choose whether I want to focus more on Macc or MAB.

For non-MB nukes, where you need to consider Macc, I guess I could see Dignitary's/Hermetic set. Though personally, in that scenario I just use my enfeebling ninjutsu set of Dignitary's/Gwati (Gwati versus Hermetic is Macc+1, MAB-3, Inventory -1)

Waist: Eschan Stone > Cimmerian

Hands:Your hands are... quite an augment. Damn shame no Macc/MAB with that amazing MBB aug, but what can you do. For anyone else not working with crazy DM Herculean augments, Hattori Tekko +1.

If you aren't already using them, x2 Malevolence is best when purely nuking.

I have MBB+15% on herc hands as well, but also have +21 MAB. Those hands above are kind of not that much of an improvement over Hattor Tekko+1 anyways? I don't know the math behind it, but Hattor does +14% magical damage anyways regardless of burst or not. So 1% difference, and loses during futae.

I found it better to use two sets, a free nuke set with 2x malev as Kyte mentioned, with a heavy focus on standard MAB+macc, and just a max burst set with MBB+40/MBBII+??/RestMB/MACC, but on anything that matters (Kei), you're not going to be doing any impressive damage to it with nukes. NIN is heavily hindered by magical accuracy, and even with Innin, Focus, Food (I used Marine Stewpot), /RDM sub and Mummu+2 pieces in the mix, NIN suffer heavily in that department and can't be considered a reasonable nuker on Kei, or any high cl for that matter.

Until SE gives NIN more nuking pieces that split high macc and mab (like relic+3 head), it's a trick at best to use in magic burst CP parties or omen card farming. Very little practical use otherwise. But there's reason to believe Empyrean Hands +3 will be amazing and clearly BIS for ninja nuking, for whenever that comes out.

edit: also, unless you have heishi aftermath on (and nuking in a CP party of some sort), I believe Ochu x2 wins when just nuking with Futae/Innin, since that MBB and MAB probably pushes nukes well past the mdmg that Heishi provides.

edit 2: Donar Gun beats Tathlum when you are nuking Raiton and do not need macc, I believe. You lose TP when you swap to it, but most scenarios as a NINuker you're skillchaining and closing with a huge burst, so the loss is minimal.

Actually looking back at the guide, Donar Gun should be added to the Conditional NIN MAB nuke set

Agreed on both points. And while Empy+3 hands look like a sure bet for a great nuke piece, IDK that they would really open up more viable ninjutsu nuking scenarios.


I mean, if you're ONLY nuking you can look at stuff like mainhand Ochu/Malevolence/goofy DM Kanaria... but for most situations, I'd think a NIN will want to keep mainhand RMEA for melee stuff, and accept the nice Macc skill+242/magic dmg+186 (and Nagi with extra Macc+40).

That's the inherent problem with ninja nuking weapons and gear in general: you have to frequently choose between magic accuracy OR damage bonus, and very rarely both. The few pieces that are exceptional in both areas are the clear cut option in nearly every scenario, whereas the rest you have to be too picky, depending on your buffs and target. You can go full mab/mbb in cp party and hit 99k nukes and not miss a beat, but that same approach hurts ninja on other targets so much more than any other nuke job because of gear options. They are not native nukers and I really question the direction SE went with that job and particular element. I feel like it was a missed opportunity to make a better version of the hybrid nuker/psuedo tank/melee dps that ninja is. They are almost like niche red mages in that they are unique in a few areas, but not excellent in any. A nuking shuriken would be a nice fit for the job, if not for improvement, to stop the damned blinking.

I largely agree. Though while it may speak more to the quality of the mages than the utility of Ninja, we DID have a SCH, a BLM, and a RDM, and I parsed 2% behind the BLM and 1% behind the SCH (for the boss fight), without the geo buffs they were getting; don't think we had a COR.
DPS aside this battle is a perfect example of NIN's utility, b/c when the PUP went down, I was able to assume hate and tank part of the fight until they could get their pet back out, w/out issue ... and then go back to nuking (to say nothing of my contribution in the rest of the run)
Typically I wasn't the first burst post-SC, and if your mages are quality enough for you to hold back you could get timing right with your group to make sure to follow the initial burst. In the mean time - you can enfeeb to a particular element to enhance their burst.
As for my bursting on that fight I tried to burst Katon: Ni for Fusion, and then Raiton: San for Light to optimize output.
I think for situations like Death-bursting and whatnot you are 100% correct that maybe let the mages do the nuking, but there IS some use to NIN-nuking, and my use of NIN on that particular fight was pretty exploratory as a response to the recent inquiries about Ninja's magic dmg.


I don't have pemphredo sadly, but I hadn't thought about Yamarang - that's a good idea. I got pretty lucky w/my burst hands (though not as lucky as Bukki apparently /cheer), but I do swap to Hattori Tekko +1 for Futae bursts. Additionally if I have weather I use the Hachirin-no-Obi, and even actually swapped to Eschan Stone when I swapped in Mummu +2 over Gyvre; I just didn't get to use it b/c weather. I suppose Cimmerian would only be good if you need it to put you into the next skill tier for dmg mod.

I actually have 3 Ninjutsu sets (technically more if you count utsusemi) that I cycle through conditionally. My free-casting set I use for generic nukes and enfeebles(!!!) is typically straight MACC and skill. You're aware of my burst set by now, and I also have an enmity set which just stacks as much enmity as possible for tanking purposes.

As for my weapons, you're probably right about Malevolence or x2 Ochu; as well as /RDM etc.. I went to the fight /war and used Heishi/perf. Ochu, to see what performance was like out of ideal nuking settings and in a more typical NIN config. (and thank goodness I did). Beyond that Heishi was appealing for the potential AM mdmg bonus, as well as the extra mdmg and macc on the weapon, not sure it would outweigh the burst bonus from ochu, but apparently the macc was pretty critical.

https://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Sealed_dagger

Hey, so... I managed to get my hands on the HQ1 Divergence Katana (Mochizuki Shinobi-gatana), and can confirm with my own /checkparam verification that the Divergence weapons' accuracy AND the Atk+ per shadow apply to BOTH hands even when offhanding the Divergence weapon. Hadn't previously seen anyone give a clear answer about that. While I only tested the HQ1 weapon, I think it's probably a safe assumption that all of the NQ/HQ1/HQ2 work the same way.

That's quite a big deal, and means that - even without augments - the Divergence katanas are very good offhands for all RMEA mainhands. And not just the Fudo Masamune, but the Mochizuki as well ranges from far better than a max Ochu or high end Kanaria (when atk/acc/ratk matter) to slightly better/sidegrade-ish territory. Even with no shadows up that's true, but if uncapped atk, the additional boost of up to Atk+105 (155 total) for Fudo Masamune or Atk+70 (105 total) on Mochizuki can make an even bigger difference - assuming you can maintain a decent amount of shadows for a sustained period. Utsusemi management obviously becomes a much more important offensive factor now, assuming you aren't already attack capped (and while it's somewhat fiddly and annoying in some respects, I kinda dig the concept of Ninja shadow-clones all attacking at once a la Ninja Gaiden power up).

Even the NQ katana (Koga Shinobi-gatana) is not too shabby, and can hang with and occasionally beat max Ochu / high end Kanaria for offhand purposes (again, comes down to how much the atk/acc/racc help you given your target/buffs).

And remember, all of this is before we even get to augments. Will be VERY interesting to see if those work when offhanded. Assuming no major changes to RMEA that allow them to take advantage of their main gimmicks when offhanded, I'd be surprised to see any of them change from the current use of mainhand weapons only - so it's looking like Divergence offhands are probably gonna be the ideal choice now. Though hey, I suppose we can't say anything for sure until we see how these weapon updates go.

When you guys are tanking how many of you take something like /run instead? I do alot of nin/blu when I dont plan on hitting the mob and just switch to a refresh kanaria and ask for a refresh or something, normally have an RDM around.

Also I assume nobody is really using a real tanking set just keeping shadows up and using normal TP?

Made this set for Nin/Run or Blu tanking but tbh I hardly even use it just sometimes when tanking like Halphas or something
ItemSet 361041
But even then 90% of the time if shadows drop and migawari wasnt up I'm dead anyway
Herc- hands={ name="Herculean Gloves", augments={'Damage taken-4%','Accuracy+5','Attack+3',}},
Andar-name="Andartia's Mantle", augments={'HP+60','Eva.+20 /Mag. Eva.+20','Mag. Evasion+10','Enmity+10','Phys. dmg. taken-10%',}},

Didnt do MDT because I just cycle when somethings casting on me into it

30%DT- could switch back to 5% DT instead of pdt though
This is assuming im still actually engaged on the mob not turned thats the only reason i using ryuo head and relic body

Well, I don't usually tend to bring NIN expecting to tank. It tends to be more of a need to jump in on a moment's notice kind of thing for me and take advantage of /WAR Provoke (it's not awesome for sustaining enmity, but obviously helps), Gekka, Yonin, and swapping into a decent tanking sets. Or maybe for very niche/specific blink tanking situations (Glazemane comes to mind).

However, a few comments since several things you proposed don't seem to make a lot of sense to me:

General comments:
1) I'd tend to think NIN/RUN would be prohibitively difficult to hold hate with real players, and if intentionally tanking NIN/BLU seems a better subjob from an enmity maintenance perspective (while still adding some solid defensive utility with Cocoon). However, either one as subjob with no strong main job enmity tools (aside from the passive enm+ buff from Gekka/Yonin) seems to me to be a pretty serious issue. I do use /RUN sometimes, but more as a way to improve my defenses when otherwise acting more as a melee DD (or maybe solo with trusts on element-specific mobs; e.g., Avatar HTBF)

2) Do you really need DT- in your "TPing" tanking set? Maybe, if you know you need to deal with AoE that will hit you regardless of shadows/Migawari, but in that case NIN is going to be a pretty bad tank regardless. For most stuff where NIN would be a more viable tank, can't you just swap into DT- set when you know a move is coming, and otherwise attack (with enm+ where possible) from behind the protection of shadows/migawari?

Item-specific questions:
3) Shigi: are you really OK with Enm-10? I can see begrudgingly using Shigi for those situations where having Migawari/Shadow recast as low as possible is absolutely vital (e.g., Glazemane), but for most "tanking" situations I'd probably want to avoid that enmity reduction.

4) Mochizuki+3 body: what's the draw?
- The DW is probably harmful, as you'd surely want to have capped magical haste anyway as a prerequisite for any NIN tanking situation (so the DW on gear is just going to be reducing your TP/hit).
- Kendatsuba+1 seems better - great offense, higher Meva, almost same Eva, and even the Subtle Blow may be of some help (easier to cap SB without needing Myoshu/Auspice)
- Even if you're trying to focus on Evasion for some reason, Hizamaru+2 is a lot better.

5) Ryuo Somen +1: combines the main negative traits of both of the above. Enm-6 AND DW+9 are both serious negatives. Why not Kendatsuba/+1 or Adhemar/+1? Both of those have neither negative, more Eva and Meva (Kendatsuba substantially so), better offensive stats, and even Subtle Blow as the icing on the cake. Can even do DT- path D on Adhemar head.

6) Odnowa/Odnowa+1: If /BLU or /RUN, why would you use this pair of earrings and reduce your already pathetic MP pool by another 200? Really just for something like a Max HP set for me, if you were trying to eat something like Dancing Fullers (but... why not just run away?). The Odnowas don't really add a lot of other benefit: if you're trying to prioritize mitigation of magic damage, Sanare and Eabani are probably better (though Eabani DW may be a negative). I'd go Trux for sure (strong enmity+ choice, pretty good offense), and the second earring maybe a situational choice between Cryptic, Sanare, or just something with an purely offensive focus.

Alternative set suggestions:
If it was me and I was intentionally tanking (as opposed to jumping in for emergencies), I'd prob be looking at something more like:
ItemSet 361042

Might also consider some swaps like:
- Weapons: LolNagi mainhand if you have it, otherwise whatever mainhand (with Kannagi being the best of the rest of the REMA thanks to the AGI/evasion). Shuhansadamune for offhand, though as noted above Shigi might have situational usefulness if you can stomach the enm-10. You miiight even consider something like an offhand Magic Cudgel (Enm+6/PDT-10%)
- Ammo: Yamarang isn't an unreasonable call EDIT: was showing Staunch Tathlum +1, but now that I think of it, giving up Daken in TP phase is a rather unpleasant thought... maybe just leave your shuriken intact unless swapping into a DT/Meva set with Staunch/+1 or Yamarang.
- Head: Adhemar Bonnet +1 (especially D path)
- Earrings: might prefer to just go offense with Brutal/Cessance, Meva/MDB with Eabani/Sanare, etc. Trux does seem like a pretty strong choice for top earring for balance of enmity and offense though.
- Hands: Kurys Gloves
- Rings: Eihwaz or Vengeful Ring
- Back: Counter+10 might be a more worthwhile Resin augment for your "TP" back if you're planning to do a lot of tanking. Again, swapping into DT- set as needed. Though, I can see the rationale for PDT- on the TP cape in case something slips through shadows.
- Legs: Zoar Subligar +1


EDIT: reorganized the above a bit for more coherent presentation.

Forgot to mention this set isnt for a MaxHaste should have mentioned that

Why would you intentionally tank on NINJA without max haste? Seems... misguided. Isn't the ability to use Utsusemi/Migawari (which are crippled without max haste) the entire point of tanking anything on NIN?

Edit: and holy s**t, not having capped haste and relying on recasts from /BLU or /RUN for enmity generation also sounds like an invitation to disaster.

You do realize you can have multiple sets depending on the haste value? Sometimes w/ lack of players the most I'll be able to get is a Haste II and its not that bad. /blu gives you more than enough spells to use w/o waiting on cast times, /run all bar spells are 300 VE not to mention I cycle into enmity Nindebuff for extra hate.

You have 3 different utsu casts and if you cant tank w/o capped haste you either suck at counting your shadows or youre just getting unlucky w/o AoE wipes. The only thing ever killing you should be something that would completely overkill you, should always be cycling in a PDT/MDT set for any tp move/cast either way

Let me remind you again this is just a set I built and hardly use anyway, the point was to see if anyone was actually using a similar set. 9/10 Im just using a normal TP set and keeping up shadows lol.

Maybe someone else is doing something similar, and they can chime in, but I'm certainly not. I wouldn't feel that intentionally using a NIN tank is worth it if you can't at least cap haste. I'd imagine most people don't really have such a shortage of better tanks that they wouldn't just use a PLD RUN PUP instead.

NIN tanking is kinda relegated to the now niche situations where shadows are vital... and if shadows are vital, capped haste is a non-negotiable for me.

If you REALLY must do an uncapped haste NIN tanking set where you ALSO feel you have to melee with capped delay reduction through DW... Some of your gear choices are still kinda weird. Ryuo head with enm- is a key example. I'd try pick up the DW elsewhere like Eabani Earring (DW+4 while also providing the defensive benefits of HP/Eva/Meva), Suppa for DW without a lot of major loss in the slot, Patentia Sash, etc. Keep the stuff like the killer offense/Meva of Kendatsuba body, don't use an Enm- head, etc.

Haven't tried it, but wouldn't RUN/BLU be light years better if you just cycled AOE spells (in max enmity set) while spamming all three tiers of utsusemi with gekka up? If the idea is tanking, who cares about shadow counting, right? With capped haste you should be able to use ichi/ni/san something like every eight seconds? In a clean rotation with yonin on, that's non-stop hate and shadows. What is actually better than yonin/spam shadows for ninja tanking? I'm asking, not badgering.

Thats basically what I do on Halphas. Turn, spam all blue magic and keep shadows/migawari up, when I made the set the idea behind it was if it's somethign thats constantly wiping shadows but not doing enough to steal miga then it would just help survivability

Really?

Guy is asking about tanking in NIN thread and you came up with "using other job would be easier" response? I mean, you might be right, but you don't do NIN tanking because it's optimal or required, you do it, because you want to do it.

You might notice that I didn't just say "durr use other job", I also provided a lengthy response in an effort to be helpful, with some gear recommendations that are pretty on point even for this rather specific sort of situation (for instance, pointing out a lot of good enmity options that might be overlooked). Did YOU add anything productive to the discussion? Not really - "Tank if you want to do it!" isn't really helping anyone.

I do still find it a little odd to insist on tanking with a job where haste is incredibly important and somehow needing to use a set to accomodate for uncapped haste. Personally, I feel like if you can't provide that fairly standard expectation, it's not a particularly great setup for NIN tanking and I'd rather use something else. Kinda like I wouldn't be thrilled to run a melee strat with one well geared melee DPS job and provide them with mediocre support.

I mean, if Luna has a really specific situation in mind that has already seen some success... cool, I guess? But those details were not exactly obvious from the initial question.

And even if you do wanna NIN/BLU and just spam spells with your back turned, I'd still suggest some of the changes I mentioned. That kind of approach really doesn't justify things like equipping a head with Enm-/DW, a body that has no real tanking benefit and just adds some totally unnecessary DW, some earrings that are probably not an optimal choice for that setup, etc. Kinda feel like I DID provide some potentially helpful suggestions...

And to further try to actually add to the conversation in a productive way (despite my reservations about the approach), how about something more like the below set to better address a situation like Lunatone mentioned with the assumptions that
(1) you're basically turned and spamming enmity spells (i.e., you're not even meleeing), and
(2) you may not be capped haste, but you're apparently at least hasted enough to get reasonable recasts to maintain needed shadows/Migawari.

ItemSet 361044

Thoughts/alternates:
- Aiming for Enm, Meva/MDB, DT, and some SIRD as the priorities. Assuming that DT- in the set has some value in case stuff gets through, though obviously still best to try to swap into a set with max DT-/high Meva for predictable big moves.

- Kendatsuba set viable in any slot for Meva/MDB/HP purposes. The more you feel like you want to gear for Meva, the more you want to stack (as opposed to just using a piece or two).

- Weapons:
(a) Mainhand Nagi if you have one, for the enmity. If not, it really shouldn't be very important to even use RMEA mainhand if you're back tanking and dealing damage isn't a high priority.
(b) Dual wielding both Tancho+1/Tancho is an option if you're interested in a very high SIRD set. You COULD even just swap these in for casting and accept losing TP if you really have no care about the NIN serving as a major damage source.
(c) Re: Shigi, if you are really confident that spamming spells is enough for you to keep hate, perhaps you can swing Shigi's Enm-10 in order to get the lower ninjutsu recast delay (especially if you need that for sufficient recasts due to less than ideal magical haste). Or, like the dual Tancho idea, just swap Shigi in for recasts and swap back into an otherwise more tanky weapon.
(d) Raicho/+1 are viable "tanky" options too, for MDT-6%/-7% (and some AGI/Evasion) - reasonable choice for mobs with dangerous magical damage.

- Ammo: Yamarang is OK too, but I'd personally go for SIRD/DT-/Resist+. I guess for this situation you care very little about dealing any damage, so can afford to give up shuriken/Daken.

- Head: Ken+1 for the nice mix of Meva/MDB/HP/Eva. Adhemar+1 (D path) also not a bad choice.

- Neck: Loricate+1 is also a reasonable choice, I kinda prefer the Enm/Meva/SIRD combo though. Moonbeam obviously an option too if you don't have or want to get the pricey HQ neck.

- Body: Ashera Harness if you have one. Kendatsuba is another good choice.

- Rings: some other non-offense options - Vocane/+1, Purity Ring (best Meva ring, MDT-4%). For mobs whose dangerous moves are limited to one element, might also consider stacking elemental resist - the 4 rings from SKCNM10 with two element+20 on each are a pretty nice option (Icecrack, Jwalamukhi, Waterfall, Wuji). Works well in a heavy Meva/element+ set, so lean toward things like Kendatsuba, Moonlight neck, Engraved Belt.

- Waist: Engraved Belt worth some consideration too.

Speaking of a high SIRD set, you can pretty easily exceed 100% on NIN with lots of combinations. Could be useful for this kind of set where you're just spamming a lot of ninjutsu and BLU or RUN spells. High value SIRD pieces include:
Tancho+1: 35%
Tancho: 30%
Moonlight/Moonbeam neck: 15%/10%
Staunch/+1: 10%/11%
Impatiens: 10%
Rawhide gloves: 15%
Wukong's Hakama +1: 10%
Druid's Rope: 10%
Evanescence Ring: 5%
Halasz Earring: 5%

If I have to hold AOE hate, /blu
If I have to hold hate on a single mob, /run
If I'm off tank or otherwise have to trade hate with someone else (like Kin), /war.

Caught them all by the way.

Still prefer Kannagi for DPS, Nagi for tanking. Heishi is nice if buffs are capped. Kikoku is nice for the paralyze proc and the subtle blow aftermath on mobs you don't want to feed tp (I like it on glassy thinker). If I can't make darkness I swap off Kannagi.

Hi says bye-bye 'cause Metsu is bestu.