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Atmacites
By charlo999 2012-09-19 13:04:27
Quote: If you can get 1/4 the way to a WS within three seconds, you don't even have to consider white damage. Quoting Nightfyre here just to remind you of this.
Quote: So If that activation time is true and your fast with your macros your losing even at full haste 1 swing, 2 if your really slow. So assuming wings are a 2 second activation time instead of 3, you are still going to get 1 whole swing in easily. You know what's cool? One swing is 1/4 the way to a WS in voidwatch. Not to mention the 28% DA, 5% TA, and 3% QA that most VW builds have. So even if you only lose 1 swing, you are STILL better off not using a wing and that isn't even including white damage. Throw in white damage, fighters roll doubling your DA, and many other things favoring not using a wing, and there really is no argument. So your 5 hitting on /war with a rag with valiant and 2 x tp bonus atmas?
I said eyeballing no more than 2 link says 1
Lowest delay with rag is 1.44 secs. so yeah if you have some sort of spellcast item >ws setup you can ws before 1.44 even comes around. I already said I don't use 2 TP bonus atmacites, although it is funny that both using 2 TP bonus atmacites AND using a discipline misers build both hurt wings in the long run.
Which is why i said earlier you can do builds to maximise use wings/not use wings. Even so any form of regain from atmas or temps dosnt matter here, as 1.44 secs is well inside any 3 sec tick of regain
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By Asura.Failaras 2012-09-19 13:16:31
Quote: Which is why i said earlier you can do builds to maximise use wings/not use wings. Even so any form of regain from atmas or temps dosnt matter here, as 1.44 secs is well inside any 3 sec tick of regain If you seriously want to figure this stuff out then go to the spreadsheets, plug in some STR atmacites, and go crazy. I definitely won't waste my time with it.
By charlo999 2012-09-19 14:03:22
doesnt change the fact that using wings and wsing is gonna give you more than not if done fast.
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By Asura.Failaras 2012-09-19 14:09:25
Give you more what? WSes? The fact that even that is arguable is how laughable this idea is. More damage? Without even factoring in white hits and simple buffs you can keep up yourself like Haste and LR, not using wings produces more damage.
By charlo999 2012-09-19 14:15:39
Sorry i thought we just looked at the numbers.
1 sec to wing > near instant ws is less than lowest rag delay of 1.44 secs and a fair bit lower than OAT lowest delay of 1.60 secs.
so a 300tp ws Vs less than 1 swing of either.
Even if you compare it to 1 swing.
It's 1 swings worth of damage with buffs and 1 swings tp vs a 300tpws because by the time you have ws'd and got that wstp back your now just 1 swing behind where you would of been anyway
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By Lakshmi.Kukailimoku 2012-09-19 14:49:26
i'm pretty sure there is always a delay between using any temp including wings, regardless if it activates in 1 second, and being able to actually ws afterwards(or do any type of job ability/ws.)
i'd also like to point out that although you keep comparing the time it takes to do 1 swing, its not like you actually only swing once. more than likely, especially when your total haste is +75%, the multi hit proc chance goes through the roof making that one swing, more likely 2-3 or even 4 swings
personally if I use a wing, its during my temp pop @ either the start as i engage, or prior to a run ending to have tp for the next fight
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By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2012-09-19 14:49:57
Lakshmi.Kukailimoku said: »i'm pretty sure there is always a delay between using any temp including wings, regardless if it activates in 1 second, and being able to actually ws afterwards(or do any type of job ability/ws.) Bingo. Use time on Dusty Wing is 1 second, it's the followup delay that kills it.
By charlo999 2012-09-19 14:54:16
Quote: i'd also like to point out that although you keep comparing the time it takes to do 1 swing, its not like you actually only swing once. more than likely, especially when your total haste is +75%, the multi hit proc chance goes through the roof making that one swing, more likely 2-3 or even 4 swings
So haste increases also increases multiattack rate?
Quote: 28% DA, 5% TA, and 3% QA]
using this gives a 1.47 hit loss minus 5% capped accuracy loss.
Regardless if theres a small delay the time for 2 swings is 2.88. No way the temp/ws dealay reaches that. Also using misers/disipline affects both senarios the same because your still getting the same tp back in your cycle from doing the ws.
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By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2012-09-19 15:07:41
So haste increases also increases multiattack rate?
Regardless if theres a small delay the time for 2 swings is 2.88. No way the temp/ws dealay reaches that. Also using misers/disipline affects both senarios the same because your still getting the same tp back in your cycle from doing the ws. Two seconds static delay on spells/JA/WS/etc is old news, so actually it does reach and in fact exceed that. You can reduce this by up to one second on JAs by stacking them in quick succession (though the last will always have the full delay and you can't stack after WS), but you can't cut the delay after an item. My statement on the first page was correct.
By charlo999 2012-09-19 15:14:11
You got a link or evidence that wing > ws takes 1 sec activation + 2 sec delay = 3 secs cycle?
EDIT : And are you applying this to a tp phase resuming afterward. Remember im not tping im forcing a ws which may measure up like using JA's back to back.
I do this cycle often and could swear its less. I'll have to timestamp my next VW and see.
If its 3 secs then its 2 swings (2.94 using above setup) worth of dot and tp damage Vs 300tp ws.
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By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2012-09-19 15:17:20
You got a link or evidence that wing > ws takes 1 sec activation + 2 sec delay = 3 secs cycle?
I do this cycle often and could swear its less. I'll have to timestamp my next VW and see.
If its 3 secs then its 2 swings (2.94 using above setup) worth of dot and tp damage Vs 300tp ws. original testing
Don't think I have a documented source available for item use, but I checked it myself before posting and got two seconds.
[+]
By charlo999 2012-09-19 15:19:01
see edit
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By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2012-09-19 15:21:30
Quote: but you can't cut the delay after an item See unedited statement in the post above yours.
By charlo999 2012-09-19 15:34:05
KK ty for your input. Didnt see anything in the link relating to item usage, well temps delay in VW. guess ill go test it out tonight with timestamp.
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By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2012-09-19 15:42:34
Timestamp is unreliable (more accurately, the game is unreliable about the timing of text outputs). You can use macros to evaluate it quite easily however per the above JA testing.
/item "Dusty Wing" <me> <wait 2>
/raw /weaponskill "Resolution" <t>
This will consistently give you the "Unable to use weaponskill." message. By contrast,
/raw /jobability "Last Resort" <me>
/wait 1
/raw /weaponskill "Resolution" <t>
Works every time. I added /raw to bypass any spellcast processing, can also just disable it if so inclined.
By charlo999 2012-09-19 17:58:44
I can see that lag may affect it due to connection speed but its never gonna give you less than it should be. Always worked fine for me. Also lag can happen loading macros, happens all the time.
Anyway here
Shows 2 secs plus i was spamming from the menu so u can see theres still time left after i have Ws'ed from the not enough tp messages.
and
3 resos here all shown at 2 secs after using wing message. Middle reso shows the 2 second wait after ws > tping
Seems like a 1 sec wait for wing activation then a 1 second cooldown wait till you can ws
Ill try the above comment tomorrow loading game as basic.
The first one you use may need to be 2.1 wait. But what your saying is it should give me the unable to ws message all the way up to /wait 2.9
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By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2012-09-19 18:03:11
I can see that lag may affect it due to connection speed but its never gonna give you less than it should be. If the item use loads late and the ws loads less late or on time it will. It's really not even an issue of lag, the game engine just sucks that hard.
Quote: Also lag can happen loading macros, happens all the time. Why do you think I wrote it all as one macro? If that's where you want to take this feel free to dispute the JA delay findings too since they were verified in part by the same method, but you're just going to end up arguing until everyone's tired of talking to you.
Quote: The first one you use may need to be 2.1 wait. But what your saying is it should give me the unable to ws message all the way up to /wait 2.9 If this was true then my verification via JA > WS wouldn't work, but it does. Need to think a little harder before you post.
By charlo999 2012-09-19 18:06:11
I can see that lag may affect it due to connection speed but its never gonna give you less than it should be. If the item use loads late and the ws loads less late or on time it will. It's really not even an issue of lag, the game engine just sucks that hard. I could accept this if only in the last hour of spamming it ever single time i spammed it from the menu after winging i was getting 2 seconds near everytime.
editted last statmentb
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By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2012-09-19 18:07:02
Again, your method is flawed. If you'd paid attention to the entirety of my previous two posts you'd have figured this out by now.
I'm only going to respond to this discussion one more time, make it count.
By charlo999 2012-09-19 18:08:13
Ok tried up to 2.9 wait nothing, then 3 did it, so it looks like a 1 sec activation and 2 sec cooldown. I concede.
So its a total of 2 swings (2.94 with da,ta,qa) Vs 300tp
Which the easiest way to work out i think if your spamming wings is to multiply both by 2 cycles.
2 wings usage (2x300tpws) = 1 full tp phase to 100 and a 100tpws.(If 6 hitting)
By charlo999 2012-09-20 17:15:37
Ig-alima
750 defence
123 Vit
level 120
101 str + 12 merits
+ 34 str armour
+ 25 boost str
+ 5 cors
+ 15 Valiant
+ 15 bravers
+7 food
= 215
Attack
417 skill + 16 = 433 = 407 attack
Str 215*.75 = 161 attack
Endark = 86 attack
gear = 112 attack
attack bonus = 72
food = 150
total = 988
Last resort 25%
Stalwarts 25%
Beserk 25%
Total = 1729
1729%750 = 2.25 - 1.05 = 1.2
max pdif = 1.5
min pdif = 0.94
RAG base = 143
fstr = 92+4%4= 23
BaseD = 166
total
Min = 156
Max = 249
average = 202
With drks crit hit damage @ 8%
Crit total
min = 358
max = 448
average = 403
crit rate with champions 15% base 20% plus merits 5% plus rag 14% = 54%
crits add 108 average
total = 310
(16% 2.5 multilier)
With hidden effect = 384
add endark dunno what procrate will have on this mob average of 20 over time at this level mob prob less = 404
using capped accuracy *0.95
TOTAL = 383 a hit.
5.88 * 332 = 2252 tp phase damage
level 120
drk/war
101 str + 12 merits
+ 80 str armour
+ 25 boost str
+ 5 cors
+ 15 Valiant
+ 15 bravers
+7 food
= 260
Attack
417 skill + 16 = 433 = 407 attack
Str 260*.75 = 195 attack
Endark = 86 attack
gear = 96 attack
attack bonus = 72
food = 150
total = 1006
Body = 5% = 51
Last resort 25% = 255
Stalwarts 25% = 255
Beserk 25% = 255
Total = 1810
Minus 8% penalty = 1665
1665%750 = 2.25 - 1.05 = 1.2
max pdif = 1.5
min pdif = 0.94
RAG base = 143
fstr = 137+4%4= 23
BaseD = 166
WSD = 426
ftp @ 110tp = 0.73125 + gorget and belt = 0.93125 + latitude + moonshade = 1.025
mekira proc day = 1.125
non proc day = 436
proc day = 479
non proc min = 409
non proc max = 645
average non proc = 531
proc day min = 467
proc day max = 718
average proc day = 592
22% DA from gear and /war = *1.22 on first 2 hits
including 0.95 per hit for acc
Non proc day damage = 2520 + 220 = 2740
proc day damage = 2810 + 246 = 3056
Non wing cycle
Using Coer , Valiant, latitude
Moonshade
mekira proc day = 3056
Non proc day = 2740
tp per hit 14.3
ws tp 15.1
regain 6 a tick inside (96% of 6 is 5.76 ((4x 1.44 lowest delay rag can get))
so 96% of 12 = 11.52
Total tp for cycle = 112.42 in a 5.76 sec cycle or 7.76
including the ws delay at the end to bring it back to the start of the cycle.
so 4 swings with multiattck is 5.88 swings 2293 tp damage
2252 + 2740 = 4992 non proc day
2252 + 3056 = 5308 proc day
Ig-alima
750 defence
123 Vit
level 120
elvan
drk/war
101 str + 12 merits
+ 84 str armour
+ 25 boost str
+ 5 Coer
+ 15 Valiant
+ 15 Depths
+ 15 bravers
+7 food
= 279
Attack
417 skill + 16 = 433 = 407 attack
Str 279*.75 = 209 attack
Endark = 86 attack
gear = 104 attack
attack bonus = 72
food = 150
total = 1028
Body = 5% = 51
Last resort 25% = 255
Stalwarts 25% = 255
Beserk 25% = 255
Total = 1850
Minus 8% penalty = 1702
(1702%750)= 2.2 - 1.05 = 1.2
max pdif = 1.5
min pdif = 0.94
RAG base = 143
fstr = 156+4%4= 23
BaseD = 166
WSD = 445
ftp @ 300tp = 0.96875 + gorget and belt = 1.16875
mekira proc day = 1.26875
non proc day = 520
proc day = 564
non proc min = 488
non proc max = 780
average non proc = 634
proc day min = 530
proc day max = 846
average proc day = 688
22% DA from gear and /war = *1.22 on first 2 hits
* 0.95 acc on every hit
Non proc day damage = 3010 + 264 = 3274
proc day damage = 3265 + 286 = 3551
So i now have
non wing phase
using coer, valiant, latitude.
6 hit setup /war starting from a base tp of 15.1 from last ws
14.3 tp a hit
taking 5.76 with ws delay its 7.76
moonshade and a overshoot tp of 110 ( 110 = (5.88x14.3)+11.52+15.1)
643 damage per second on non proc day
684 damage per second on proc day
Wing cycle
using coer, depths, valiant
bale earring
654 damage per sec on non proc day
710 damage per sec on proc day
Asuming macroing
/ws "res" <t> <wait2>
/item "Wing" <me> <wait3>
/ws "Res" <t>
brd used with marches
No souleater used or cor rolls.
Attack is aready capped so DA roll and sam/crit roll would be best here.
When u dont have wings the none wing cycles ws's are gonna pull it ahead because of latitude but SE is gonna favor wing cyle depths more. But the extra str will bump up your white damage slightly on the wing cycle
Unless my math is way out
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By Cerberus.Taint 2012-09-20 17:29:02
doesnt change the fact that using wings and wsing is gonna give you more than not if done fast.
What year is this? Wing spam was never a good ideal for DPS.
[+]
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By Leviathan.Quetzacoatl 2012-09-20 17:40:12
Wings for procs onry
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By Asura.Ccl 2012-09-20 17:52:46
I didn't check all of it, but from a quick check:
If you assume VW with roll ect, DA should be higher. If I can cap Ddex on elvaan on Ig, everyone should be able too so crit rate should be higher too.
Also doing some check on Motenten spreadsheet ws average @ tp on ig with atmacite/temp is 2695 and @ 300 tp it's 3025 (both Mekira inactive).
By charlo999 2012-09-20 18:16:02
havnt seen much steups with more than about +16 with +15 from bravers and merits should put u around 144 dex?
Igs agi is 110 so that 34 over putting it at +4% i spose unless you talking other means i havnt thought of yet
edit Itll add 6 damage per swing in the tp phase.
By charlo999 2012-09-20 18:30:31
I didn't check all of it, but from a quick check:
If you assume VW with roll ect, DA should be higher. If I can cap Ddex on elvaan on Ig, everyone should be able too so crit rate should be higher too.
Also doing some check on Motenten spreadsheet ws average @ tp on ig with atmacite/temp is 2695 and @ 300 tp it's 3025 (both Mekira inactive).
Numbers look close enough to mine althogh you didnt say which atma
I can redo with DA roll if wanted bit late to start that now though. Still cant see it bridging the gap as its gonna affect ws damage too.
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By Asura.Ccl 2012-09-20 18:33:18
DRK/war:
Base dex: 98
gear
Armada 11
bale head +2 7
Phocys legs 10
rajas rings 5
= 33dex
Atmacite + temps:
15 bravers 15 vaillant 30 dex
March bonus
+10 dex
=> 98+33+30+10 = 171Dex
Edit:
Did you take into consideration crit dmg + from drk trait ? Also w/o wing should be at like 175-225 tp, I'm not sure why but your difference between with and w/o wing ws is way bigger than on the spreadsheet.
It's 350 ish on it, your is like 700.
By charlo999 2012-09-20 18:38:10
doesnt change the fact that using wings and wsing is gonna give you more than not if done fast.
What year is this? Wing spam was never a good ideal for DPS.
Sorry if i worded that badly i meant using it in a good macro fast enough not back to back.
Using wings every other ws as to lessen the tp gained by wsing being lost is what im suggestting.
Using when swapping weapons or missing ws hits only increases damage more, cause your not wasting tp as much.
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By Asura.Ccl 2012-09-20 18:38:56
check edit.
By charlo999 2012-09-20 18:56:26
DRK/war:
Base dex: 98
gear
Armada 11
bale head +2 7
Phocys legs 10
rajas rings 5
= 33dex
Atmacite + temps:
15 bravers 15 vaillant 30 dex
March bonus
+10 dex
=> 98+33+30+10 = 171Dex
Edit:
Did you take into consideration crit dmg + from drk trait ? Also w/o wing should be at like 175-225 tp, I'm not sure why but your difference between with and w/o wing ws is way bigger than on the spreadsheet.
It's 350 ish on it, your is like 700.
yes forgot crit damage trait but my ws w/o wing is at 175% with latatude and moonshade
Which are the best DRK Atmacites for GS or Scythe? Currently using Discipline , Coercion, and thinking to upgrade a 3rd one.
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