I didn't read any of this thread aside from the title being that it's a religion thread on FFXIAH (which you know..... 1) troll OP topic > 2) 4 people on both sides repeating propaganda from their camps 3) circular posts continue for 20 pages).
However, I am Christian and I condemn every last one of you. Not just the non-religious and sinners. All of you.
I'd like to know how somebody who uses critical reasoning is considered to be in a "camp"...
also I fear not your nor your "god"
I fear black widows in my garage during the summer.
I didn't read any of this thread aside from the title being that it's a religion thread on FFXIAH (which you know..... 1) troll OP topic > 2) 4 people on both sides repeating propaganda from their camps 3) circular posts continue for 20 pages).
However, I am Christian and I condemn every last one of you. Not just the non-religious and sinners. All of you.
I'd like to know how somebody who uses critical reasoning is considered to be in a "camp"...
also I fear not your nor your "god"
I fear black widows in my garage during the summer.
that's a valid fear, but would it be more appropriate to say you're overly cautious? since I mean they can kill you...
We all live with some fear in us, even if we try to eliminate it all.
I didn't read any of this thread aside from the title being that it's a religion thread on FFXIAH (which you know..... 1) troll OP topic > 2) 4 people on both sides repeating propaganda from their camps 3) circular posts continue for 20 pages).
However, I am Christian and I condemn every last one of you. Not just the non-religious and sinners. All of you.
I'd like to know how somebody who uses critical reasoning is considered to be in a "camp"...
also I fear not your nor your "god"
I fear black widows in my garage during the summer.
I didn't read any of this thread aside from the title being that it's a religion thread on FFXIAH (which you know..... 1) troll OP topic > 2) 4 people on both sides repeating propaganda from their camps 3) circular posts continue for 20 pages). However, I am Christian and I condemn every last one of you. Not just the non-religious and sinners. All of you.
I'd like to know how somebody who uses critical reasoning is considered to be in a "camp"... also I fear not your nor your "god"
I didn't evaluate you as an individual, duh. I'm making broad generalizations based on my experiences. I'm willing to bet that If I actually back read the thread I'm 100% spot on too.
I didn't read any of this thread aside from the title being that it's a religion thread on FFXIAH (which you know..... 1) troll OP topic > 2) 4 people on both sides repeating propaganda from their camps 3) circular posts continue for 20 pages). However, I am Christian and I condemn every last one of you. Not just the non-religious and sinners. All of you.
I'd like to know how somebody who uses critical reasoning is considered to be in a "camp"... also I fear not your nor your "god"
I didn't evaluate you as an individual, duh. I'm making broad generalizations based on my experiences. I'm willing to bet that If I actually back read the thread I'm 100% spot on too.
I'll disagree just on the fact that I speak about 90% from personal evaluation, or previous arguments.
B...B...But all I ever do is love you, Ashman! Why have you forsaken me so? /falls to knees and sobs
I lost to SPENCE?!? I also can't find a clip from 'Atonement' that adequately expresses just how you ripped out my beating heart! I guess I'll just go with this, and cover all my bases...
I didn't read any of this thread aside from the title being that it's a religion thread on FFXIAH (which you know..... 1) troll OP topic > 2) 4 people on both sides repeating propaganda from their camps 3) circular posts continue for 20 pages).
However, I am Christian and I condemn every last one of you. Not just the non-religious and sinners. All of you.
I'd like to know how somebody who uses critical reasoning is considered to be in a "camp"...
also I fear not your nor your "god"
I fear black widows in my garage during the summer.
Hobos are more common in my neck of the woods. I fear them with an unholy terror that spans the ages. Nightmares, panic, screaming, the works!
Well if God is a being with infinite power, knowledge and options and he chooses to deal with things one way... Wouldn't you think that was the right chouce then even if you couldn't understand it? Even if it made no sense to you? I know you don't believe in God or an omnipotent being but say for a moment, just pretend a little, that there is such a being. He was all knowing, all powerful and creator of everythign in existence. Would he not be able to sift through the vast amount of choices he has and be able pick the one that suits the best. I mean he is all knowing...
How could I be a moral being in the human sense and support teachings that advocated slavery, genocide and death for breaking the simplest of rules? Working on the sabbath deserved being stoned to death? Did God happen to realize what kind of followers he was shaping by doing this?
I tend to hang up on slavery because of the sheer scale of what some simple passages regarding the allowance of slavery did to thinking on this planet for hundreds of years. You had thousands of people living with the idea that God thought keeping another person chained was moral and right. Beat your slaves, it's morally right so long as the victim doesn't die in the process. This is divine morality?
If so, some humans have surpassed that in the last few centuries and rightfully so. There is nothing divine about extracting suffering from your fellow human beings.
In our modern culture just beating an animal is seen as an outrageous abuse of human power and why is that?
Make no mistake, I don't fool myself into thinking that slavery wouldn't exist without the Bible's acceptance of the practice but for a divine author to actually ok such a barbaric process is astounding. Everything tells me that slavery is wrong, abominable and the most disgusting expression of human selfishness and if God professes to be the embodiment of 'moral good' then anything less than an outright rejection of this process is wrong.
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I don't pretend to know what an omnipotent being thinks or why he acts the way he does. You might see that as a cop out but really if there was such a being he would certainly know more than you or I and wouldn't you think he'd make the best decision for the desired outcome?
If a divine entity existed anything like the God of love most Christians profess to worship then the Bible would not be a book it endorsed. Full of violence, threats, death and suffering mixed in with valuable lessons, humanity has outgrown many of the barbaric teachings within the text and only the most hardlined Christians would attempt to defend passages like servants obeying their masters or killing nonbelievers.
This thread started with someone who is gay being pulled from a chair yet if you look in the text, there are passages that would support this behavior and any divine text would have no such interpretation issues. We can blame ourselves for being 'unable to understand' but that's hogwash designed to obscure the fact that the text is vague and can be interpreted in virtually infinite ways.
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You also talk about how he could make better choices on what to do with us. What would you have him do? Would you like for God to intervene in your every day life and stop you from scraping your knee and getting embarrassed or only step in to cure cancer and prevent wars? Would you like him to meddle in your every day life leaving you to do as he tells you so that you would not worry? Would you abide by his rules if he promised you a perfect life?
If a divine being existed then he'd be much more understanding of the individual thought patterns of people on this planet. This idea of imposing a rigid set of rules upon all humanity screams of a control mechanism designed by humans to facilitate a distinct way of thinking - a holdover from the tribal days of human thought. Religions don't promote learning, they demonize it and discourage any individual learning.
If you don't do X, you'll suffer Y eternal punishment.
If you don't do X, you'll be stoned to death.
X are the chosen people, Y are the blasphemers who must be shunned, kept away from our women and destroyed.
I'm sure you can see how such a system is designed to cause eternal conflict between people. When you believe you're chosen, people can be enslaved at will and that the ends justify the means you have what Christianity was up until recently when free-thought took hold among theists and atheists alike.
Many of the theists on these boards always seem to miss that their 'feelings' on the Bible would have held no water just a few generations back.
I think it Was X or Spath that suggested education and improved economy would improve things. I can't argue with that. Is there a movement within the atheist community to better our public school systems and improve our economy? What is your community doing to become the top dog and lead us in to the golden age that you see atheism as bringing to our world?
Trying to educate children about evolution which leads to more educated individuals within our populace who pursue answering the questions we cannot answer today? Cures to diseases among other scientific breakthroughs are but a knowledge gap away if we were to go at it full-force but...
Religious fundies throw up roadblocks at every turn crying literal 7 day creation myths are true, a global flood wiped everything out and postulate that humans walked the earth with dinosaurs with little to no evidence for this. The struggle to simply get evolution taught shows exactly what religion does with regards to progression of society as a whole.
I didn't read any of this thread aside from the title being that it's a religion thread on FFXIAH (which you know..... 1) troll OP topic > 2) 4 people on both sides repeating propaganda from their camps 3) circular posts continue for 20 pages).
However, I am Christian and I condemn every last one of you. Not just the non-religious and sinners. All of you.
I beg to differ. I think we made a lot of progress last night, setup some of the ground work and provided some leeway.
It's laughable that you claim that all beliefs are equally valid.
A belief is a belief, none are valid unless proven with solid facts.
Bahamut.Jetackuu said:
Shiroi: I've never claimed any god doesn't exist, just that a being cannot be omnipotent, which if you understand logic you'd know this.
Also atheism isn't an ideology, but nice try.
A being doesn't mean human being. Using logic, obviously I don't believe an omnipotent being exist, but I'm sure there are a lot of things we can't comprehend yet.
We could argue the word ideology was poorly used.
I never said anything about a human being, I specifically used the word being.
It's not a matter of comprehension: a being that is all powerful cannot exist; logically.
acceptance =/= tolerance
creationism =/= intelligent design
theory =/= fact
Also laws are made to be broken, if no one ever in the history of man ever committed said act, that warranted a law, the law would not exist. Laws don't exist without a consequence, so in a way Law is punishment.
None of that was relevant, just like this thread, trying to use logic to disprove an illogical idea doesn't exist is funny. Logic is relative anyway. My logic states that every member of congress is a virgin, because I have not personally witnessed them have sex, nor have there been any studies proving that "theory" or to disprove it either.
I read this whole thread, someone pay me $50 an hour, that is my billable rate and you just wasted 2 hours of my day.
Logic is relative anyway. My logic states that every member of congress is a virgin, because I have not personally witnessed them have sex, nor have their been any studies proving that "theory" or to disprove it either.
Although for some, it may seem so - but claiming that they have or have not had sex is not an outstanding claim.
Outstanding claims require outstanding evidence. People have sex every day, it's not that special.
You could say that your shirt is blue, and I'd have no reason to not believe you. But, if you said that when you woke up this morning your blue shirt told you "wear me today, or you're gonna burn in hell forever", and proceeded to jump out of your closet and slip over your torso - well... that would require evidence to be believable.
Logic is relative anyway. My logic states that every member of congress is a virgin, because I have not personally witnessed them have sex, nor have their been any studies proving that "theory" or to disprove it either.
Although for some, it may seem so - but claiming that they have or have not had sex is not an outstanding claim.
Outstanding claims require outstanding evidence. People have sex every day, it's not that special.
You could say that your shirt is blue, and I'd have no reason to not believe you. But, if you said that when you woke up this morning your blue shirt told you "wear me today, or you're gonna burn in hell forever", and proceeded to jump out of your closet and slip over your torso - well... that would require evidence to be believable.
acceptance =/= tolerance
creationism =/= intelligent design
theory =/= fact
Also laws are made to be broken, if no one ever in the history of man ever committed said act, that warranted a law, the law would not exist. Laws don't exist without a consequence, so in a way Law is punishment.
Uhh.. what? That's like saying trees are made to make forest green.
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None of that was relevant, just like this thread, trying to use logic to disprove an illogical idea doesn't exist is funny. Logic is relative anyway. My logic states that every member of congress is a virgin, because I have not personally witnessed them have sex, nor have there been any studies proving that "theory" or to disprove it either.
Logic is absolute. Your 2nd sentence is a personal experience and is relative from one or another.
Also, I like how this thread coming from religion to cancer and Tanaka after 10 pages.
As Sam Harris put it religion used to be 'the only game in town'; It comes as one package of moral values, laws, economic and political guidelines (fatwa in Islam, syariah banking), intelligent design, etc.
It's really hard to just criticize one of the part without provoking the others who embrace the other values under 1 name : the religion.
How can we criticize those elements without having them declaring fiat that they have their holy books as their guidelines and therefore you are not allowed to do so.
The type of confrontations pictured in the OP video are sickening .... and worse, sickeningly common ... apparently in Australia, too, and not just the good ol' USA.
Seriously, if human beings spent half, or even a quarter, of the time and energy we waste of confronting others instead on getting to know others ... the world would be a much happier, more productive and peaceful place.
But no, of course we can't have that, can we? Anger comes too easily to humans, and happiness takes effort. Fear comes too easily, and joy is under-appreciated and taken for granted. People tend to seek out confrontation, and are apparently bored by camaraderie. It's easy to dislike someone with different opinions or lifestyle choices ... and it takes effort and (god-forbid!) using brain cells to understand someone's different lifestyle ... so let's always take the easier path and just condemn everyone and everything we don't understand or don't approve of because some ancient book says "it's bad", among other illogical reasons.
*sigh*
Stupid, stupid human beings ... it is only once we can all denounce the concept of "god" that we can give up the myth of being judged by a divinity ... and start looking at ourselves in the mirror and judge ourselves for who we actually are as individuals.
I think it Was X or Spath that suggested education and improved economy would improve things. I can't argue with that. Is there a movement within the atheist community to better our public school systems and improve our economy? What is your community doing to become the top dog and lead us in to the golden age that you see atheism as bringing to our world?
Trying to educate children about evolution which leads to more educated individuals within our populace who pursue answering the questions we cannot answer today? Cures to diseases among other scientific breakthroughs are but a knowledge gap away if we were to go at it full-force but... Religious fundies throw up roadblocks at every turn crying literal 7 day creation myths are true, a global flood wiped everything out and postulate that humans walked the earth with dinosaurs with little to no evidence for this. The struggle to simply get evolution taught shows exactly what religion does with regards to progression of society as a whole.
So you're movement has attempted to teach children about evolution which you think will lead them to solve the future's problems? Is there a program or a fund set up? Does such a movement exist where you offer this knowledge in the form of classes outside of a school? Or is it something that just tries to get evolution taught in public schools (which I advocated as well, if you forgot). When is is taught in schools do you make sure they have the proper materials and teach it correctly? Do you fund programs and the like to encourage this type of thinking?
And here we go again... You know one thing then play the blame game as to why things have not happened. Religious Fundies are the reason we can't get anything done!!!
And here we go again... You know one thing then play the blame game as to why things have not happened. Religious Fundies are the reason we can't get anything done!!!
The type of confrontations pictured in the OP video are sickening .... and worse, sickeningly common ... apparently in Australia, too, and not just the good ol' USA. Seriously, if human beings spent half, or even a quarter, of the time and energy we waste of confronting others instead on getting to know others ... the world would be a much happier, more productive and peaceful place. But no, of course we can't have that, can we? Anger comes too easily to humans, and happiness takes effort. Fear comes too easily, and joy is under-appreciated and taken for granted. People tend to seek out confrontation, and are apparently bored by camaraderie. It's easy to dislike someone with different opinions or lifestyle choices ... and it takes effort and (god-forbid!) using brain cells to understand someone's different lifestyle ... so let's always take the easier path and just condemn everyone and everything we don't understand or don't approve of because some ancient book says "it's bad", among other illogical reasons. *sigh* Stupid, stupid human beings ... it is only once we can all denounce the concept of "god" that we can give up the myth of being judged by a divinity ... and start looking at ourselves in the mirror and judge ourselves for who we actually are as individuals.
You speak of taking the time to understand and see where others are coming from yet you also judge and criticize in the same thought. You dismiss something because you see it as antiquated and uneccasary without thought for those that think it is neither. You also generalize as if everyone who is affiliated with theology is a bigoted person ripping people from wheel chairs. Is this the only answer you have? Get rid of religion and the world will be a better place? I would offer a suggestion of finding a different solution as I doubt it's disappearing any time soon. Also, you have way more faith in mankind than me to think that hatred and bigotry would disapear with the fall of theology.
And here we go again... You know one thing then play the blame game as to why things have not happened. Religious Fundies are the reason we can't get anything done!!!
Stem cell research.
I assumed that is what he was talking about. 1) I didn't ask what they haven't done, I asked what they were doing. 2) I'm kinda tired of the blame game. Time is better spent finding a way around it to the ultimate goal than complaining about why you're hindered. Maybe I'm wrong.
And here we go again... You know one thing then play the blame game as to why things have not happened. Religious Fundies are the reason we can't get anything done!!!
Stem cell research.
I assumed that is what he was talking about. 1) I didn't ask what they haven't done, I asked what they were doing. 2) I'm kinda tired of the blame game. Time is better spent finding a way around it to the ultimate goal than complaining about why you're hindered. Maybe I'm wrong.
Sometimes finding a workaround is the simpler solution, but sometimes they may be so bogged down with religious derived laws and regulations a workaround may be near impossible.
So you're movement has attempted to teach children about evolution which you think will lead them to solve the future's problems? Is there a program or a fund set up? Does such a movement exist where you offer this knowledge in the form of classes outside of a school? Or is it something that just tries to get evolution taught in public schools (which I advocated as well, if you forgot). When is is taught in schools do you make sure they have the proper materials and teach it correctly? Do you fund programs and the like to encourage this type of thinking?
And here we go again... You know one thing then play the blame game as to why things have not happened. Religious Fundies are the reason we can't get anything done!!!
Do I think teaching evolution will lead people to solving the world's problems? Yes, in short. Or should I say that creationism will teach us nothing?
It won't be every child that solves those currently unanswerable questions but what we know as a species right now is that Darwinian evolution is the most comprehensive explanation for how life grows, adapts and eventually changes on this planet. Many questions still remain and who knows? Maybe some inquisitive young mind will decide to dedicate his/her life to solving those mysteries we've yet to answer.
The alternative is the "know-it-all" study of Creationism rooted in "tradition", passed down as a the one true study of how the Earth and life (including people) came to be. Instead of challenging young minds, creationism postulates that all you simply have to do is memorize "God did it" and from there you too have become a master of the study of life.
So what should we teach in school the realm of imparting knowledge upon our youth? Something rooted in evidence and reality or some myth that only applies to one specific group of people? It's not like the fundamentalists want all forms of creation taught in schools, they want their specific flavor of the myth and none else.
Many theists have had to grudgingly admit that evolution was apart of the process of how life changed on this planet. The only people who currently vehemently oppose the teaching of this process are in fact young Earth creationists and their fundamentalist cohorts who want to poison learning all for the sake of holding on to all they know.
Religion is a facade for control. Anyone with a brain should be able to see through the elaborate web of fabrications sooner or later. The very fact that religion only offers a bribe into believing in God or being subjected to eternal suffering should be setting off alarm bells.
