The Last Dance: Gearing Paradigms For A New Age

I have a question before test it.

With a friend, we wanna see if with the new addition of horos casaque, we can descently stun delve tp move to try to rep the classical 2 SCH/BLM with 2 dnc or maybe 3.

Anyone here have try ?

And nobody know if another stat influence the succes of violent flourish ?

You get anywhere from 3-4 stuns to land and then you won't land another one. This is with Horos Casaque and Izhiikoh. Worked the same way on both Tojil and Muyingwa.

Not that I'm advocating using dnc to stun in delve, but I had no problem landing stun effect on violent flourish in a terrible Muyingwa pug (for lols/fun) 14 times over the course of 10 minutes (there were 2 other dnc there, but I have no clue what their gear was like or the success of their stunning). It was an 18 man group, I don't know if there were geos reducing meva. I didn't think it would stun after the first couple, but if the hit landed it stunned until the inevitable wipe.

And in a low man run, like a tojiil one with for example.

WHM BRD MNK DNC DNC DD(random)

i think i will try it, for fun first ^^

I usually have no issues stunning anything that can be stunned with this set. I think most dancers forget that violent flourish relies on magic accuracy to stun.
ItemSet 263837

Two DNC rotating violent flourish won't keep up with tp moves, would need a third. And I'm sure that Muyingwa had a GEO reducing meva

Thks for the tips brixy, need to reajust my stun set ^^

Brave yourself, fun is coming or wipe

I did some spreadsheeting, and it appears:
* For Terpsichore, I get that Izhiikoh is still the best possible offhand.
* Horos Tights +1 are fairly crappy for TP even if you are 5/5 Saber Dance.
* ^ Based on this and Horos Shoes +1, the best bet at the moment for DDing is 4~5 CP, 1/5 Saber, 1/5 Fan, 3~4 NFR.
* C-path Qaaxo feet are awesome for Pyrrhic Kleos and blow our other options out of the water (assuming their stats are correct in the spreadsheet)
* A-path Qaaxo hands are decent for TPing, but aren't that much better than Horos/Maxixi +1 hands.

We don't really have any targets in the spreadsheet with evasion comparable to AAs on normal, I think, but I used the bunny and single-party buffs when doing the above comparisons.

Compared to what? I'm really surprised by this. Etoile Tights +2 were hands-down the best TP legs for us pre-SOA. What's making +5 DA legs "crappy" ?

Not as cool as Byrth yet, but a huge goal completed for me.
Next up, a bunch of trials and a lot of Scoria.

Grats! Best mythic ever, if i had a time machine i'd use it to go tell myself to make this ages ago.
The killshot trials aren't that bad, I blew through mine in like ~11hrs total.

These were the spots and monsters I did for mine:

Trial 1000: Undead - Aby Attohwa, Shnitter skeletons

Trial 1001: Aquans - The 2 crab camps between CC and heqet, Aby Misareaux

Trial 1824: Birds - Frigatebirds, Aby Misareaux

Trial 1825: Arcana - Aby-Altepa. I did Bonfire bombs instead of sand sweepers because noone will compete for the mobs, the roaming chariot NM is easy to see coming a mile away and avoid.

Trial 2252: Beasts - Aby-Vunkerl. Russet Rarabs

For trials I used vv/Apoc/Vicissitude,
for me it seemed to be the perfect balance of multiattack and passive regen so I never needed to waltz and I was able to always have well over 100tp for strong killshots.

Really appreciate it, this will help me along greatly.

I'd recommend any population of Monitors instead of Bombs for Arcana. Monitors are weak to piercing.

I think I used Abyssea - La Theine rabbits for my Beasts trial, but I remember having to avoid Marvin.


Either way, the trials go ridiculously quickly on DNC compared to every other job I've ever had to do them with. Congrats on Terpsi!

Thanks!

I also have a pocket BRD, so small-time NMs don't get in the way too much.

Because we are limited by merits, you have to consider Tier 2 merits, foot and leg slot at the same time. I consistently ended up with better DPS using Horos+1 feet and Quiahuiz legs with 4/5 CP than I did using 5/5 Saber, Horos+1 legs, and whatever feet were best.

Getting rid of No Foot Rise would allow you to go 5/5 in one and 4/5 in the other and still keep Fan Dance. Is this not even worth considering?

There's pretty much no chance in hell I'd give up no foot rise, so it's not worth considering for me.

Qaaxo feet (path C) are great for Pyrrhic Kleos. 15 Attack, 5 Acc, 22 STR, 21 DEX.

However, the rest of the set looks pretty crappy?
Head - Path A is maybe an evasion TP piece? Otherwise it's ***.
Body - Worse than Thaumas as a delay cap TP body with path A. Worse than AF2+4 body as a PDT TP piece with path B. Would be useful in the few situations where you would wear Thaumas but care about an extra 40 Defense.
Hands - Maybe blah-ish usage as a PK WS piece for high Acc situations with path B augments.
Legs - Path C makes them a decent PDT TP piece. This honestly looks like the second best piece of the set to me.

Am I missing anything here? I maxxed Qaaxo leggings and I already feel like I'm done xD

So, I did some Tojils and AAs on DNC lately after updating my Gearswap file to use all my most recent acquisitions.

Parse wise, I was generally worse than rangers on AAs by a substantial amount (RNGx2, WHM, PLD, BRD, DNC). Best ranger would do like 40% and I would be pulling 25%. If we had used a more melee-centric strategy, I do not know what the results would have been. I suspect that the amount of time I spent casting Utsu was a major factor in the difference between us, but that is one of the advantages of Ranger.

Against Tojil, I would typically pull pretty much even with the monks after you add in skillchains. The problem is that adding skillchains in for me and then comparing me to monks is kind of crap, because I was probably interrupting VS-> VS light skillchains making my silly Distortions/Darknesses. You could make the argument that my debuffs/buffs compensate for this, but I do not really buy it considering Monks are delay capped without Samba. Kurma appears to resist piercing, so my damage was miserable against him but about the same as Tojil for the rest of the zone. My hit rate was capped even using a smouldering Salisbury steak and no notable Acc set, so there is that.

In situation where you /nin (aa/dm), I feel that dancer does recast utsu more than melees and can pull hate more often while behind on the parse.
I'd suggest making a note of how much time you have the mob attacking you versus the others.
I find I really have to hold back and my sabredance time is extremely short lived because I can take more than my share of tank-time to the point of not having ni or ichi up and turtle into fandance.

*Dps time you lose as a dnc recasting utsu is dps time gained by the other DD not having to cast and stop their damage. This difference is the kind of stuff that scoreboard doesn't show and nearly everyone overlooks the value in this if you pull hate significantly more often than your peers.

I think SE is terrified of making us do more damage because a dancer that swaps into -dt and gets fandance up is unkillable already unless you subject us to amnesia/encumbrance mechanics.

Some scenarios we don't do more than 75% of top-tier geared mnk or rng damage. That sucks when people want a dd slot and only care about total damage dealt, but I kinda got over this damage discrepancy and just decided to embrace alternate setups and mechanics to pull more hate and tank-time onto myself instead of the other DD.

As far as delve zones go, I think we shine pretty well in Foret which historically hasn't been the place to bring dnc. I find with /Run with +enmity set,fandance and flash spam is pretty much a paladin in dance tights and can maintank the shark and I can reliably help stun.

I recently discovered I can farm hardmode EV and top the parse on DNC with a PLD DNC THF SCH BRD WHM setup . My point being we can be the DD star of the show and win the parse if that's what you want depending on how you build your parties.

That's a pretty sophisticated (and correct) point. Unfortunately:

(1) as you allude to, I'm sure that level of sophistication is waaaaay over the heads of the majority of the community. I have a hard enough time with very basic things like convincing people that PUP's damage is composed of both master AND automaton damage... and,

(2) in the same role, doesn't NIN main do the same thing better than DNC? Extra shadows, stronger weapons, able to use a pure DD subjob (or can still do something like /RUN if you like). Unless Fan Dance is an absolute necessity - and if you're blink tanking I'm guessing that's far less likely - I'd choose a NIN first.

Not to say DNC can't fill that sort of role, but we're going pretty far down the line of alternate setups by talking about a job that's arguably a sub-optimal choice for role that's already not a part of generally accepted/popular party composition.

Dnc gives debuffs through steps & weaponskills(Kleos-eva down, Exen-acc down) as well as pt buffs like haste samba which are all pretty important vs. 1 tough nm. You have to count those in if youre comparing nin to it.

Byrth's comment is relevant here:
Also worth noting that sambas are useless for rangers. I really doubt steps are enough to make DNC a better choice, and remember you can still /DNC if it's really that big of a deal, while retaining the significant main job benefits.

Trying to rationalize with dagger WS effects is surely a major reach, to the point where it's barely even a legitimate consideration.

It's slightly more believable in very high Evasion situations, because we get access to something like -74 evasion in debuffs that are either unresistable or highly accurate (Quickstep, Rudra's, Pyrrhic).

... but yeah, in a situation like old Delve it is very hard for me to buy that our debuffs / buffs really help much at all.

The whole point of all the stuff I try to share here is to hopefully prove you can make DNC highly effective when you bring it to stuff.

I can't really defend against arguments of 'sub optimal' when people only want to argue relative total damage dealt versus a target or they think more shadows and migawari on a NIN is better than a tanky fandance DNC that can pull a 700pt aoe heal and a 1500pt single target heal back to back if I camp my TP with smart play.

If people don't have a nin in their ranks and noone has passion for playing that job for you to bring, then its a pointless comparison to make versus dnc if you can clear the content on time and reliably with dnc because have a dancer.

Sometimes I almost want to write a little guide on a bunch of little subtle ways you adjust strategy to make dnc work in these newer events.
One example would be my argument for why its a good idea to preemptively fandance and hold onto your TP more instead of ws'ing for the last 25% of AA MR so you can always survive burst damage like double clousplitter->darkness by using your tp reserve to top yourself off immediately when the 1st ws lands and before she does the 2nd to make a sc on you. You can pretty much keep MR focused on just you and keep snacking on cloudsplitters as a result till she dies.

Our evasion down/acc tools are still really nice for hardmode EV, and that's more for the benefit of pld+other DD due the inevitability of EV using the Intervene SP which hurts their ability to lands hits and tank/bounce hate with me when I need them to because i'm always beating everyone in acc and when you cap hate that imbalance is not ideal.

This was said regarding old delve content(where nothing is evasive), an aa fight is different. As I said vs 1 evasive tough mob, the advantages are very useful. Sambas are useless for rngs but def down & eva down sure arent.

Rangers have so much Accuracy that there's almost never going to be a time where DNC melee is viable and DNC's Evasion debuffs matter for RNGs. I did D AA MR and the Rangers had capped ranged hit rate without any debuffs from me. The Paladin also barely benefited because his hit rate was floored.

So yeah, you'd be basically left arguing that DNC is the best job to provide a subbable Defense -13% (max) in that situation. What else could you use to argue for that? Waltzes, when you have an infinite-MP WHM in your party? The fact that we can take hate off a Paladin? (PS. Why would anyone want to take hate off a Paladin? If you're bringing a Paladin, you want them to have hate as much as possible.)



Peripheral Benefits:
1) Waltzes - If your WHM is good, not only should you not need to Waltz, but your Waltzing would hurt them. When we do Wopket, our WHM spams Curaga IV/V's and doesn't run out of MP. He can do this because of WHM AF3+2 pants, which convert HP cured back into MP. If I suddenly started dropping Divine Waltz IIs and blowing my TP to heal people, his Curaga Vs (which he would have already started casting) would heal less HP and he would potentially have to start paying for them, thus eventually running out of MP. tl;dr: if you justify your Waltzing by "my WHM was running out of MP," your logic may be circular.

2) Haste Samba - With capped magic/equipment Haste (68.75) and either 25% Dual Wield or Hasso, jobs don't need more than 5% JA Haste to cap delay. Thus, /DNC Samba is just as good as DNC/ Samba.

3) Box Step - Useful! Again, though, /DNC Box Step is just as good as DNC/ Box Step.

4) Quickstep - Useful! Again, though, /DNC's Quickstep is just as good as DNC/ Quickstep.

5) Feather Step - Less useful than Box Step or Quickstep in hard endgame content, but DNC main! Hooray!

6) Rudra's Storm - Available to THF, BRD, or DNC

7) Pyrrhic Kleos - -10 Evasion, so not that strong.

8) Durability - Less durable than a Paladin. Most durability is contingent on not using Samba, which means someone else would have to provide Samba if you still wanted it.



DNC is in an awkward position as a job. It's not that the job cannot be used in endgame. It's that it's not an ideal job for pretty much any endgame situation. In high buff situations, we turn into a DD with peripheral benefits that apparently don't matter enough for one MNK to sub DNC over WAR. After spending billions of gil on DNC, I can confidently say that I should probably be on Monk most of the time in endgame, which is sad considering that my Monk is basically just a typical cookie-cutter Oatixur VS-spammer.

Just to be clear, i wasnt arguing dnc's usefulness in endgame. I was saying that if one is comparing nin(with a "pure DD sub") & dnc, disregarding dnc's debuffs wouldnt be a fair comparison since dnc adds support for the whole pt in the case of an aa fight. byrth is correct about quickstep being useless for rngs since I forgot we were talking difficult(no way id bring a dnc for vd) fights.

I'll have to disagree about DNC's endgame usefulness. Mostly its useful because other people suck at FFXI. There's always 1 or more in a party......ALWAYS. You can theory craft that your magical haste should always be capped, but it doesn't happen. Bards don't sing songs due to lazy or they get dispelled. Magical haste gets overwritten with slow and people who erase are slow/lazy (so healing waltz + haste samba becomes more useful). In regard to steps: People without DNC as a main often forget to or rarely remember why they were told to /DNC. I've parsed plenty of older delve where the DRG was /DNC and you are lucky to get them to do once on a NM...many don't do at all. Many WHM are slow or stupid when it comes to status debuffs and healing.....many are. If you happen to have a party where EVERY member is pulling their weight, then you going on DNC (vs MNK or w/e) doesn't impact probability of a win. From many years of FFXI experience, this is rare in party (nearly mythical in an alliance). There's always one or more people that are lazy or stupid in a group; its DNC job to compensate for them. Also DNC > PLD for delve holding and pulling. Typically you can finish adds solo in short order after pulling tojil (or others) and get back into the fight to provide better damage as well as steps,ect.

WHM's dont run out of mana even when you are occasionally reducing the benefit of their AF3+2 pants, I have never seen it happen in Delve, hard AA/DM or VD SKC/BCNM.

I don't waltz because I don't have confidence in the backline ability to be on point with heals, I do it because its an opportunity to pull farther ahead on hate relative to everyone else on the frontline.
My LS finds using a dancer like this effective enough that our SCHs go the extra mile to give me animus augeo and everyone else animus minuo to further push the enmity generation gap into my favor.

If you take a moment to consider our enmity equipment options and for delve throw /RUN sub into the mix you get a sizeable collection of hate building tools.
Flash/Runes/Lunge/Swipe/Swordplay all generate significant amounts of CE/VE and with split waltz timers, well its just borderline broken good how many things a Dnc/Run can do to generate enmity.


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With that being said, I might as well go into more detail on /run sub for delve or other scenarios where you don't need /nin and be more than just a dd.

So my enmity JA gearset is currently this (+47 enmity)
ItemSet 321703
when you add in your enmity buffs:
Fandance: +15 enmity
Animus Augeo buff: +20 Enmity

This puts a dancer at +82 Enmity anytime you want to Flash or pop a JA for CE/VE, (and for relative comparison, a paladin gets +100 from Sentinel which they only get for 30secs every 5mins).
The recent enmity change where you lose less hate in +enmity gear makes it easy to keep hate even when taking a beating.

For non-JA mode and pulling hate/playing wanna-be paladin mode a flume belt and/or Ethereal earring gives you enough dt->mp conversion to feed your mp pool a significant amount for endless flash spam.
When you aren't doing JA actions to build CE/VE with a max enmity set I drop out the feet/ammo/neck/waist for tp/-dt/hybrid mode gear which puts me still in the neighborhood of ~+65 Enmity for tp phase.
When you waltz you can still be at +55 Enmity while waltzing with +41% waltz potency gear.

For reference my starting mp pool with /run is around 350ish so I have enough mp to cast flash ~14 times without worrying about having someone refresh or need my dt->mp conversion refill some of my mp bar.

Even if people don't want to bring dnc to delve, i'd suggest anyone that still dabbles in doing WKR on occasion to sub /run and give tanking the bosses a go for a taste of the play mechanics you can employ.
Before I felt confident with /run , I used it in a pure solo scenario versus Kurma/Tax'et/Krabakarpo T5 delve NMs in the field as sparring partners to practice with until they despawned after being engaged for 20mins. Its a good way to practice weaving all the DNC and /run JA together while waltzing and flash casting.

It will at very least give you a taste of how strong our hate building tools are with /run and hopefully inspire you to try some different things with dnc or even step up and substitute for the role of a paladin in all the newer content.