Tachi: Shoha

Just stop trying dude, he clearly won't listen to reason or...you know, math that drives this game. -_-

What I'm getting out of your posts is that you don't understand basic statistics. The margin between the two items is very small; even without looking at your parses there's no doubt in my mind that your sample size is insufficient to draw any sort of conclusion.

agree with u night, those 2 pieces of course not. it is a small amount, but my argument was the factor between masa/any GK w/o native STR, and the big difference in STR factors, where people lack STR for shoha IMO should be filled, that is all, i'll rest with that. sorry for stirring the hive, just wanted to drop my 2 cent's.
and as far as listing gear it's gonna have to be a minute, doing Meebles.

If you're arguing STR > da, why avant +1 over hachiryu?

edited for clarity. I'm tired. bleh

I'm not sure if that's all one question or if you're stating that STR > Double attack, then following it with a question.

Edit: Oh I see, it's directed at Mattyc. lol

Unkai back is only worn by my Storage Moogle.

I use it for YGK and heavily buffed Fudo. Although mathmatically I wouldn't be suprised if Atheling won then too. But, I just have never had good luck stacking DA on 1 hit WS.

2-3 base damage. (2.55 from 5str on Fudo) vs 3da/3att

Atheling is going to be best for anything above fodder. (and even then its a less then a .1% gain) Gonna leave it with my moogle.

I have been using Unkai back for TP when I don't need the 3 STP with hasso. I am doing it wrong?

Don't backpedal, it's insulting.

Disregard the attack on each piece for a moment and consider only STR vs DA. I'm not fully brushed up on SAM sets, but running with /WAR, Pole Grip, Brutal Earring, Phorcys Mitts, Avant Cuisses +1, Ganesha's Mala, and Windbuffet Belt for a fairly "standard" build gives us 3% QA, 2% TA, and 21% DA. 8-hit cap isn't an issue, so the math is fairly simple. We'll use one full hit's worth of overflow and TP Bonus Moonshade to present a relatively detrimental case for Atheling Mantle, so ~1.80125 fTP on the first hit.

(2.80125+(3*0.03+2*0.97*0.02+1*0.97*0.98*0.24)*2)/(2.80125+(3*0.03+2*0.97*0.02+1*0.97*0.98*0.21)*2)=1.65% increase in damage from Atheling Mantle's 3 DA.

If you assume that you're getting the maximum 5 WSC out of Unkai Sugemino, you need <=303 base damage for it to beat Atheling. In the more likely event that it provides 4 WSC, you need <=242 base damage. Assuming capped fSTR (22) and a level 99 relic or empyrean GKT, you'd only need 149 WSC for the 5 WSC case. That's 175 STR. Even Taru with Amano should have ~178 STR with food, let alone the bonus from Hasso or the potential 20 STR from Masamune. 90 Masa loses ~5 base damage vs a 99 Amano comparison, but that's not enough to give Unkai a lead even in the 5 WSC scenario unless you assume no Hasso and no STR buffs.

The highest VIT value I know of for a mob is the DC Hydra MNK's 150 VIT. With RCBs and Hasso, the Taru SAM has 192 STR. That's 163 WSC and 11 fSTR, for a total of 306 base damage. Aside from the unlikely event that you're gaining six base damage from Unkai via WSC and fSTR, it's still inferior to Atheling with any 99 GKT and sidegrades with 90 Masamune in a situation skewed far towards Unkai's favor (low WSC and fSTR, minimal buffs, relatively high overflow). Change race, target, reduce overflow rate, and Atheling just pulls ahead further.

The only weapons where Unkai should even potentially be on the table are Kogarasumaru and Keitonotachi, and in the latter case it's only situationally superior at best depending on target VIT and your WSC flooring. Haven't checked for Koga but I wouldn't be surprised if Unkai won in that case since AM3 can proc once on WS, though adjustments in other slots may affect that result.

i wasnt arguing full STR....i was arguing about back piece only, obviously DA%'s are important, obviously a fair amount of DA% is needed on ws's for the proc on ws's. Avant's blow hachiryu out of water 2 more STR and 10 less attack, & no DA kinda pointless.
this whole argument started when "long fights" were brought into picture...because none exist, 20 weaponskills is nothing, and the fact that it was brought up made me lmfao.

And Night i wasn't back pedaling, all i mentioned was, is you were right and it's barely noticeable. Then shared my opinion, this game is one big dice roll. didn't want you to write and essay on a job you don't play lol.

With all this being said "Is there A STR cap?" something that i have always wondered.

fSTR caps but WSC does not.

Either way you should be using Atheling.

I don't understand how that's funny, I never said 20 WS were considered a "Long fight"...I said the longer the fight the more chances DA has to proc and the higher your DA helps that. More spike from DA procs = higher average damage. And his paragraph pretty much did the math for you dude. Atheling > Unkai don't have to play the job to know how to do math.

Seriously. If you don't get it by now I'm not sure what to tell you.


I'll also restate this since you seem to have still not understood it:
An average has nothing to do with a long fight. Your parse is giving you a small sample size in a single short fight because it's a shorter fight, and therefore gives you a smaller sample size. All a smaller sample size does is make it so that set of data (your parse is a set of data if you didn't know that) is less likely to give you the correct results. This means that in reality, your parse means jack all because you're not actually going to get the correct result until you parse infinitely many fights and get a large enough sample size. It can be done, but doing (correct) math on paper will give you the same results.

That isn't to say Atheling is bad on short fights. You're just seeing an incorrect result because of the short fight (small sample size). You'll also see that Atheling outperforms Unkai more often than not, even in short fights. This is as basic as statistics get, so if you don't understand it I can't really explain it much better.


So when you say opinions again I'm going to slap the living ***out of you.

tbh I'd shoha in missuchi if i was using masa/amano. likely to be attack capped for shoha anyways, and it would save me an inventory slot.

Well you would definitely have Atheling for Fudo, since you need it for AM. Should probably have it for Amano for Kaiten spamage or used as an AM swap piece.

Fudo aftermath doesn't affect my tp set.

He probably means to keep Atheling for Fudo when zerk is down/low ATK situations to keep AM up.

If my attack is that low, I wouldn't be using Fudo at all if I had Shoha. With masamune, I'd carry missuchi for TP/Shoha, and Unkai for Fudo.

YES SLAP ME OVER INTERNET! DO IT! lol.
and this forum helped me alot, i will now use a rabbit mantle+1 on WS's.

Edited: Auster was correct

. . .lol at this point I'm not sure if you're trolling or just dead serious, if trolling: Good job, you got everyone. If dead serious: . . .I'm at a loss for words. v-v

And where would I make up the extra 3 store Tp then? And no, Atheling isn't better than Unkai for Fudo.

When was that established? o.O I've been using Unkai for Fudo, please direct me to the page where they said Atheling > Unkai for Fudo.

My approach towards you in my posts was actually to be informative and helpful.

That you refuse to understand/acknowledge the help given here by several posters is your loss.

The response you made above just makes you look ridiculous though.

I don't understand what you're asking me, the first one is about Shoha the second about Fudo?

Yep reread, apologies

You are right. Unkai edges out Atheling unless you are using the full 3 extra attack. (For Fudo)

They math out really close overall, but yes, unkai for fudo, and i use it in my regain tp set for the zanshin, though i never have bothered to look up how much is on it... Anyone bothered to math out the best setup for regain?