Is FFXI Dying?

Killing apex mobs is like working your muscles at gym with very light weight

Yeah it was day one for the NA release

This wasn't a direct attack on you btw so you can relax, it was just an overall statement because this 'I only have a few hours to play' argument gets brought up for any grindy game - and I've had to change my mindset because I was in the same boat.

What I'm trying to say is if anyone doesn't have the time it takes to be the type of player they want to be (mix/maxed, BIS, lord of lords), they can either adjust their goals to something a bit more realistic, or choose a game where they can get what they want out of the 1-2hrs they have. Or just cheat and skip things for those 2 events you want to play, I don't really care - the whole dance just seems silly to me

Hahahaha omg I can't even take this thread seriously.

I TOLD YOU HOW KILLING THE SAME STUPID TRASH MOB THE SAME WAY OVER AND OVER BRINGS SKILL. TRUST ME BRO, IT MAKES YOU SUPER DUPER STRONG AND KNOW HOW TO LIKE TO SWING YOUR SWORD. TRUST ME BRO LIKE SWINGING YOUR SWORD HELPS YOUR BICEPS AND TRICEPS. OH IF YOU WANT YOU CAN KILL CRABS OR BIRDS BRO. THE CHOICES ARE ENDLESS. CRABS USUALLY ARE THE END FORM OF EVOLUTION SO IN THEORY, FOR ALL ANIMALS, YOU ARE FIGHTING EVERY MOBS ULITMATE FORM POTENTIALLY BRO. TRUST ME BRO

Would you like to actually address any of the points, or just write random all-caps trolling strawmen, so you can enjoy punching them?

The *** is the point of 1 to 98

Lmao

At a generous 750 exemplar per kill the entire way from 1-50, you're looking at 40,000 mobs to cap. Compare Job points, where 15k capacity per kill equates to 4,200 mobs to master.

Yeah.

How many people do you know who even bother to level their jobs from 1-98 manually (not cleaving)?
How often are you self-skillchaining from 1-98?
For most of these levels you don't have all of the weapon skills available to you
Even if you get the skill for it, how many people are stopping to quest WS and unlock empyrean/mythic WS while leveling?
How many people are alternating between multiple weapon types while leveling?
Some JA don't come until much later levels
Trusts murder everything while you're leveling, so good *** luck practicing any of this stuff
Your WS damage at 78 is incredibly irrelevant to WSD at ilvl
SC damage at 84 is irrelevant to SCD at ilvl
Magic and hybrid WS damage is nothing like it will be at ilvl

What are you even talking about?

Friend, I don't think Fujito cares if we all quit. Most of what he's done has been aimed at lowering the cost of operating XI to the point that it'll likely still be profitable at extremely low sub numbers.

There are still a few die-hard endgame players grinding Sortie, but in another year or two all that'll be left are the social players, and that's fine. Easier to entertain them.

So in the context of this empty, waning world, do I care if someone bots, as long as they aren't being a *** to one of the few remaining actual players still around?

I guess we figured out the solution then: make your own MMO and write the ToS to say: "botting is permitted, unless you're being a *** to another player". Have fun enforcing that in a fair way, it sounds like a pretty straight-forward thing for your employees to keep straight and I'm sure there won't be any contention.

So I guess you're selectively enforcing. Whole bunch of people are pissed at SE for doing just that so I guess selective enforcement isn't very popular. Full enforcement and no enforcement also aren't very popular.

things you can read online:

Your WS damage at 78 is incredibly irrelevant to WSD at ilvl
SC damage at 84 is irrelevant to SCD at ilvl
Magic and hybrid WS damage is nothing like it will be at ilvl
For most of these levels you don't have all of the weapon skills available to you
Even if you get the skill for it, how many people are stopping to quest WS and unlock empyrean/mythic WS while leveling?
How many people are alternating between multiple weapon types while leveling?
Some JA don't come until much later levels

opinions:
How many people do you know who even bother to level their jobs from 1-98 manually (not cleaving)?
How often are you self-skillchaining from 1-98?
Trusts murder everything while you're leveling, so good *** luck practicing any of this stuff

Things you can learn while Botting/mercing grinding MLs

There's lessons/skills you can learn from both mindlessly killing monsters non-stop and in a more controlled, specific and practical NM setting. It really all depends on the player. I agree with Maletaru in that you can learn vital job skills in an EXP environment, especially the more involved jobs like healer or support. It's actually better to learn them here where the stress level and stakes are much lower. This is actually how I learned how to place DNC; i got 99 and joined JP parties in Dho Gates and was able to learn some of the job's mechanics, like waltz range and steps/flourish effects, certain skillchains (though an addon can cover the latter). I probably wouldn't have been able to jump into a VDV1 Ambuscade as a fresh 2100 DNC if I didn't have the experience that came with actually playing the job.

I also agree with Eiryl's point that a real NM or content teaches you advanced lessons and skills/mechanics that you likely won't learn in an EXP setting. I learned far more from losing Arebati/Kalunga/Ongo etc runs after HUNDREDS of attempts than I ever could from killing generic monsters.

I think the difference between the two is, while you can learn some relevant introductory skills from MLing, it comes at a cap; You're eventually going to become so proficient at it that you really can't learn anymore, and the exercise will get boring. Whereas there are a number of NMs and content that you can experiment those introductory skills you learned EXPing and take them to a more advanced level on a harder NM or event.

Using my DNC scenario above, I wasn't nearly as good at the job then as I am now, after having suffered so many failed/successful Xevioso/Arebati attempts. I was decent at the job from basic JPing and Ambuscade, but got way better when doing more challenging content because I had to learn how to make quality use of certain moves and tactics that I never had before (like Chocobo Jig mid-fight Arebati V25 for kiting the Raaz, a move I would only ever use for travelling and questing). I had never got the chance to test my DNC against anything worth the challenge, so it was more of a utility job for when someone asked for it. The experience I gained from doing real NMs taught me more about set building and mechanics than I initially knew from JPing.

The real problem is two-fold: players are too lazy to practice skills and are more interested in the reward and not the journey, and SE made these grinds intentionally long as a way to artificially prolong the game's life, due to reduced future plans. In the end, you get frustrated players who decide to skip (or would like to skip) the grinds and just get the reward, but eventually they get bored with the game and quit because there's nothing more to do. And you also have players who reach the endgame, but they aren't actually good at their jobs, because they skipped all of the content that was supposed to prepare them for greater challenges.

In general, FFXI has never taught you anything, other than, "Hey you should probably figure this ***out." i.e. You're on your own, bucko.

EXP and how long it takes gives you ample opportunity to practice. Most people don't care about that, so they really don't learn much.

In the end, it's useless compared to practicing endgame fights, because the monsters you're fighting are essentially training dummies. To get good EXP per unit time you pick the least problematic mobs. They never reward anyone for fighting Apex Bhoots over Apex Poxhounds, for example.

But I mean, really, would you rather have someone in your party that is freshly cleaved to 99 with 0 idea about what's good, or someone who leveled themselves to 99 and has the slightest inkling on things like SC timing (or more realistically, actually has looked at and has requisite skill levels to have WSes etc.).

FFXI is a game about commitment, after all. Who do you think is more committed? The guy who spends a lot of time grinding manually, or the guy paying a few bucks to get single day 99? (assume they are both complete nubcakes)

I agree to an extent. If someone wants to pay to get 99/2100/ML50 in a few days and then spend a few weeks learning how to play the job, I would take that over a guy spending 4-6 months to 99/2100/ML50 "grinding manually" to learn how to play his job. The first person used their time more efficiently and became useful in a shorter time, and still learned the requisite skills. Its about managing time IMO

Honestly, I'd rather do that than grind ML. At least there's some variety in locations, you have book objectives, and you can even go wild with cosplay level-appropriate gear, even though the trusts are doing most of the work.

I'm pretty sure a brand new player with no KI's can do 1-99 faster than anyone can get ML50, too.


Most games that have successfully reduced unwanted behavior like botting or RMT did so by designing their games or systems to remove the demand.

SE knows this. If they cared about people botting EP, you would get %TNL EP rewards from objectives in any/all ilvl content, and players could get to ML50 naturally with a few months practice doing... actual content. Better for players, better for the community, absolutely within SE's technical and budget capabilities to implement, even now.

ML is a grind that encourages botting because SE wants it that way.

Speaking of, these were fun. They could inject some life into MLing and would encourage more adventuring/exploring if they added these books/quests for Locust/Apex mobs.

Disagree. I think this is just people excusing their behavior pretending that SE designed everything with botting, JA0 wait, react, gearswap, etc. in mind.

I don't believe for a second that anyone at SE is designing any content or systems with 3rd party programs in mind. You've lost your marbles if you think they're designing content specifically for people to use 3rd party programs to beat it or leaning into 3rd party program usage. This is just copium people tell themselves to excuse their behavior, and lo' and behold they are SHOCKED when SE enforces the rules because "they basically told me to bot"

SE thinks: "ML 50 take FOREVER to complete, plus there are 22 jobs, this will give them something to do, even if they're seasoned players who play all the time"

Players think: "ML 50 takes forever to complete, how am I supposed to get this done by next week when I'm supposed to attempt V20 Arebati?"

And then they blame SE for why they have to bot, and for banning them/their friends for botting...

Its a bit naive to think they don't have any metrics on 3rd party usage, or that they don't factor that usage in any way when designing content. Do you remember when memlocs would change every single version update, breaking the majority of addons and 3rd party tools? Or the relatively new 4006 error for speed hacks (2021). You want to talk about not being able to play without stuff, those were the days. SE stance simply shifted to not fighting the bots directly, but adjusting their design to factor it in.

The literal reason ml50 is regoddamndiculous is they know everyone is botting.

They're stupid, but not that stupid. They see you logged on attacking in the same zone for 400 straight hours, ain't nobody fooling anybody lol.

Sure, sure. I mean, McDonald's doesn't force people to be fat. They just make the burgers.


There's a better way, and courtesy of XIV, SE knows it. The fact that ML remains a straight grind means, at best, that they do not care.

Not sure what your point is here...you think the only reason they're changing the memlocs is to combat 3rd party tool usage? If so, that's an extremely strange way of attempting to solve that problem, and also has nothing to do with their game design.

Adding a speed check that DCs people is acknowledging that people are speed hacking, but it's not designing content that requires speed hacks.

I'm not saying they're blindly unaware of 3rd party tools, unlike most people here I don't think the entire staff are blithering idiots. What I'm saying is they aren't designing fights going "well, let's throw in this extra ability or change this use time because people are gonna be using gearswap and we need to challenge them" or "well, we've gotta add 10 more MLs because we need to encourage people to keep botting every night" etc. etc. etc.

They're not making game design decisions to encourage, incentivize, or require any 3rd party tools. They're making content and game design decisions based on their own philosophies and then people who use 3rd party tools are pointing at ***and pretending it's an excuse for their behavior and that SECRETLY everyone at SE is tacitly endorsing their behavior and they REALLY want you to do all this stuff, they just can't come out and say it.

Give me a break.

This thread is an excellent vessel to contain the vinegar. Vintage even.

Things I will add to make some pickles. ML50 is great and you should get there with whatever job(s) you actually like. My only one is RDM and I'll probably also get DRG there. Possibly RUN. Not going to pretend I have motivation past that.

You definitely shouldn't have jobs you don't like playing at ML50. That's just encouraging you to have a bad time. ML 30 isn't that bad to do and gets most jobs, most of the things you want. And I wouldn't even make that the bar for entry, just a casual goal for people you play with regularly.

If a day 3 day ban after you were botting enough to get banned is enough to make you go bye bye, then anything was going to make you quit. Game is not for you anymore. I hope you have a good break and find something you'd rather do with your time.

It doesn't matter how much time you spend on this game xping or otherwise. If you're a dumbass, then you're still going to be a dumbass. You won't get better. Because you're a dumbass. If you're not, then you still have to put in the effort and be present to learn. Maybe even read a wiki and test somethings out to make sure you understand the information you just 'read'. Then you have to apply it in real time with other people. That is the actual hard part. It's also the fun part. If you're not looking forward to this, you are genuinely wasting your time on this game. Which is totally different from us who are genuinely enjoying "spending" time on this game.

Wardrobes and playing multiple jobs is a wonderful opportunity to make sure you really like the jobs you say you like to play. Game was not fun when everything had to fit in your inventory and you played RDM. Yes SE is forcing you. They are bad people. Proof: No new expansions with a boat.

Now for the salt. The 75 era ended in 2010. The game has been post 75 era for longer than the 75 era. Get over it. Pickles.

Using the conservative estimates in my previous post, ML 50 requires roughly 10x the number of mobs compared to Job Points. The real number is almost certainly higher. Job Points have multitudes of ways to increase xp/hr through gifts. Exemplar have none and were released in Nov 2021.

I'm not saying they have some hidden agenda wanting you to bot, but if you think the difference in design philosophy between the two systems doesn't account for how rampant botting became with Job Points in the first place, I don't know what else to say.

Said it two years ago. Still time to make it happen SE:

It's a matter of opinion, that's all. I view JP as something you are supposed to finish (title, stars above your head, 1hr reduction) and EP as something you're supposed to work on and as a reward they can keep giving you for doing stuff.

If you're already ML50 you don't get anything from Peach Power, Sortie, Ody segs, etc. and there's also no incentive for you to bring that job to an ML party. The fact that it's such a ridiculous goal ensures that you have a reason to continue playing that job in these events (in addition to the other rewards)

The problem (in my view) is that people see them both as something that you're supposed to finish and as goals. If you look at ML50 as being something you SHOULD have and you NEED to finish, then yeah you need to resort to botting because how else are you supposed to get the shitzillions of EP it requires? If you view EP as a reward for doing content that slowly makes your character more powerful and something optional that you COULD do, then you don't feel the need to bot it to 50 and you can just chill at 15, 27, 32, 38, or whatever number you're at instead of insisting that you must bot some job every night until you have them all at 50.

Interesting. I can't think of anything put in the game that wasn't meant to be completed, except maybe killing AV. Just the fact that ML 50 exists means someone out there will do it, no questions asked by any means necessary. I've yet to get a job that high and may never, but I know full well that SE designs these things consciously with those types of players in mind.

I read a lot of comment's about bans, did I miss something?

This simplest answer is usually closest to the truth. Which is, JP's came out when the game still had content and stuff to do on the horizon so it wasn't the 'we need you to do this indefinitely' version of XPing. ML's came out with exactly the above in mind because the games in maint mode.

You dont get better practicing against low skill peons. You get better by playing against people at or slightly above your skill level. I can 1-v-20 a group of 5 year olds at hockey and absolutely dominate them, but that will not make me any better at the sport. Similarly, if I were to spend an hour 1-v-1ing against Connor McDavid, that wouldnt help my hockey skillset either because of how badly I would get dominated.

There are very few job-based skillsets to be learned.

Nah. I'm not saying SE is endorsing botting or that botting somehow isn't cheating.

I'm saying the implementation SE chose for ML is so awful that it drives people to cheat. This is a game all about leveling up and reaching the cap; Looking at the time required to get to ML50 feels so fundamentally unfair that many players who hand-farmed all their JP were suddenly willing to cheat(or pay someone else to) for ML.

When I say SE doesn't care, I don't mean about botting. I feel like a broken record saying it, but they could have given us a system that rewarded players with ML for actually playing a job in endgame content and we'd all have been better off.