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Abortion
Bahamut.Jetackuu
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Posts: 9001
By Bahamut.Jetackuu 2011-07-05 14:08:19
zahrah said: Bahamut.Jetackuu said: Also adoption option is a joke.
Maybe in this country. I have many friends and family that were adopted though. Adoption is not a joke though.
Think of how many people who cannot conceive a child by natural means. Two of my aunts have endometriosis. There are many people who are infertile, but they can still have families without paying an arm and a leg for fertility treatments or in vitro fertilization.
I said the adoption option is a joke, not adoption.
Adoption is and can be a great thing, however the system is *** at best and overcrowded with unwanted children.
Hence why I said the option is a joke. (from the biological mother's standpoint) think what would happen if the already overcrowded system was flooded with those unwanted "babies" who's going to pay for the foster care etc?
Bahamut.Josseppi
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By Bahamut.Josseppi 2011-07-05 14:08:20
Phoenix.Neosutra said: Ya Josseppi, don't have sex if you don't want to be pregnant. Right? Yes, that's what I'm saying. I'm not perfect by any means, but like it or not our sex drives are there for a reason, procreation. Say what you want about love and romance, but ultimately the reason for attraction, the reason for feelings of excitement and what we call love, and the reason sex feels so good is carrying on the species. If we didn't have a desire to do it before we knew how to communicate and share ideas on what it is, our species would have stopped long ago. Now that we know and have all the information about what sex is and what it does, educate people, especially those feeling those feelings for the first time. Explain to them that even though it feels good, there are consequences just like anything else that you do in life, and let people know that they will be held responsible for their actions.
I say this now, just after Casey Anthony gets off for killing her child. *** up ***.
By zahrah 2011-07-05 14:12:34
Bahamut.Jetackuu said: zahrah said: Bahamut.Jetackuu said: Also adoption option is a joke.
Maybe in this country. I have many friends and family that were adopted though. Adoption is not a joke though.
Think of how many people who cannot conceive a child by natural means. Two of my aunts have endometriosis. There are many people who are infertile, but they can still have families without paying an arm and a leg for fertility treatments or in vitro fertilization.
I said the adoption option is a joke, not adoption.
Adoption is and can be a great thing, however the system is *** at best and overcrowded with unwanted children.
Hence why I said the option is a joke. (from the biological mother's standpoint) think what would happen if the already overcrowded system was flooded with those unwanted "babies" who's going to pay for the foster care etc?
True. Sad. This thread is just too depressing.
By sefalon 2011-07-05 14:13:01
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8186774/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/
http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2011/03/paterson_man_is_convicted_of_k.html
If you need more let me know. In the second case the man was charged with 3 counts of murder one of them being the unborn child.
You lost me at sky daddy .. all I here is I am an Atheist who hates children and thinks of killing animals blah blah blah please recycle...
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By Asura.Arkanethered 2011-07-05 14:17:46
zahrah said: Bahamut.Jetackuu said: Also adoption option is a joke.
Maybe in this country. I have many friends and family that were adopted though. Adoption is not a joke though.
Think of how many people who cannot conceive a child by natural means. Two of my aunts have endometriosis. There are many people who are infertile, but they can still have families without paying an arm and a leg for fertility treatments or in vitro fertilization.
The problem with this is that there are not enough quality families that actually take the adoption route. Most will try/fail until they either give up or find a way to have children that are their own before they even consider adoption. IF they even consider adoption.
Until then the 1.5m(ish?) abortions a year is a decent form of population control. It at least it makes a small dent.
[+]
Phoenix.Sehachan
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By Phoenix.Sehachan 2011-07-05 14:21:02
Abortion cause you and your dum boyfriend thought that taking it out was enough for contraception? I'm against.
If the pregnancy threatens my life, I'll abort, I don't care.
If I get pregnant after a rape, I'll abort, I don't care.
I don't care about the vision of life that others have, a baby is my own body's product, and it's my damn choice to discard it if I want.
If you have a good reason for abortion you should be able to do it. And if the state forbids it, people will still do it illegally - sometimes with risky methods.
And yes, it involves religion. Church goes as far as threatening on these matters. And governments pretend to be laic, but they're not - also cause catholic voters are many.
Btw I have nothing against people with faith. I have a lot against people that don't reason with mind, but with bible...
By zahrah 2011-07-05 14:23:30
Asura.Arkanethered said: Until then the 1.5m(ish?) abortions a year is a decent form of population control. It at least it makes a small dent.
This is going to sound really insensitive, but tell that to third-world-countries, please.
Sorry. I've seen a few girls in my lifetime use abortion as birth control. That is disgusting!
Bahamut.Jetackuu
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By Bahamut.Jetackuu 2011-07-05 14:24:54
sefalon said: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8186774/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/
http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2011/03/paterson_man_is_convicted_of_k.html
If you need more let me know. In the second case the man was charged with 3 counts of murder one of them being the unborn child.
You lost me at sky daddy .. all I here is I am an Atheist who hates children and thinks of killing animals blah blah blah please recycle...
the first is from a fetus that's 8 months in, no surprise there.
the second is iffy, and if they fought it could get a retrial.
depends exactly where in the pregnancy and trimesters etc.
Find some before 20+ weeks and I'll be shocked to see them charged with murder.
Bahamut.Jetackuu
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By Bahamut.Jetackuu 2011-07-05 14:27:39
Phoenix.Sehachan said: Abortion cause you and your dum boyfriend thought that taking it out was enough for contraception? I'm against.
If the pregnancy threatens my life, I'll abort, I don't care.
If I get pregnant after a rape, I'll abort, I don't care.
I don't care about the vision of life that others have, a baby is my own body's product, and it's my damn choice to discard it if I want.
If you have a good reason for abortion you should be able to do it. And if the state forbids it, people will still do it illegally - sometimes with risky methods.
And yes, it involves religion. Church goes as far as threatening on these matters. And governments pretend to be laic, but they're not - also cause catholic voters are many.
Btw I have nothing against people with faith. I have a lot against people that don't reason with mind, but with bible...
that is all people of faith...
Phoenix.Sehachan
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By Phoenix.Sehachan 2011-07-05 14:29:43
Bahamut.Jetackuu said: Phoenix.Sehachan said: I have a lot against people that don't reason with mind
that is all people of faith... That's not true. I know people that believe in god but aren't dumb.
Never generalize.
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By Odin.Zicdeh 2011-07-05 14:29:56
Bahamut.Jetackuu said: Phoenix.Sehachan said: Abortion cause you and your dum boyfriend thought that taking it out was enough for contraception? I'm against.
If the pregnancy threatens my life, I'll abort, I don't care.
If I get pregnant after a rape, I'll abort, I don't care.
I don't care about the vision of life that others have, a baby is my own body's product, and it's my damn choice to discard it if I want.
If you have a good reason for abortion you should be able to do it. And if the state forbids it, people will still do it illegally - sometimes with risky methods.
And yes, it involves religion. Church goes as far as threatening on these matters. And governments pretend to be laic, but they're not - also cause catholic voters are many.
Btw I have nothing against people with faith. I have a lot against people that don't reason with mind, but with bible...
that is all people of faith...
Not all. Just the vast majority.
Lakshmi.Jaerik
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By Lakshmi.Jaerik 2011-07-05 14:30:02
The entire argument comes down to when life begins. If you legitimately believe that life begins at conception, you are morally justified in defending that life through whatever means are necessary. It's actually the logical conclusion of that line of thought, so it's hard to blame them.
Except we've never claimed life begins at conception.
Should we hand out conception certificates instead of birth certificates? Does a fetus get a social security number? Can you declare it as a dependent? What kind of tax withholding does it qualify for? Is a fetus eligible for the State Children's Health Insurance Program? Does it count as it's own Medicaid beneficiary? Is it Contributing to Delinquency if you drink while pregnant? Can a fetus inherit property? Can a judge declare it an emancipated minor? Can a pregnant woman drive solo in the carpool lane? Should we have funerals for miscarriages? Do you have to declare them them with the state? Should they be investigated as potential homicide? Can you take out life insurance on a fetus? Should we retroactively add nine months to all of our ages?
Nevermind the "argument from tradition," which is a flawed rationale to begin with. I only offer it here because the same people love to invoke it on all other social issues.
I would also accept a legitimate religious reason for why life begins at conception. So far, nobody has been able to supply Bible quotes specifically referencing abortion as murder, nor have they been able to furnish anything but the most vague and wishy-washy references (Jeremiah 1:5) to interpret it. Nevermind all the Biblical references where abortion is commanded by God as punishment upon your enemies, or the very explicit references from Jewish rabbinical law, including the Talmud, (the foundation of the Old Testament) which specifically say an abortion is a property crime, equivalent to killing your neighbor's cattle without permission. Whatever the argument either way, it's certainly not very cut-and-dried.
No, the abortion debate to me seems political and secular. By inventing a new interpretation of when life begins, the church can compel ordinary, good, moral people into action by teaching them that they are defending a human life. And by manipulating that (very legitimate) sense of moral duty, they can harness the political power of their flock into nominating and voting for church-approved candidates with a whole host of other agendas that would typically not get them elected otherwise.
Bahamut.Jetackuu
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By Bahamut.Jetackuu 2011-07-05 14:31:05
Phoenix.Sehachan said: Bahamut.Jetackuu said: Phoenix.Sehachan said: I have a lot against people that don't reason with mind
that is all people of faith... That's not true. I know people that believe in god but aren't dumb.
Never generalize.
I never said dumb, I said who don't reason with the mind.
Faith by definition is void of logic, hence the conclusion.
Lakshmi.Jesi
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By Lakshmi.Jesi 2011-07-05 16:43:50
Lakshmi.Jaerik said:
No, the abortion debate to me seems political and secular. By inventing a new interpretation of when life begins, the church can compel ordinary, good, moral people into action by teaching them that they are defending a human life. And by manipulating that (very legitimate) sense of moral duty, they can harness the political power of their flock into nominating and voting for church-approved candidates with a whole host of other agendas that would typically not get them elected otherwise.
This is always how I saw the abortion debate. It's just a way for people to get elected based solely on them fighting against abortion. Since the GOP is the "religious" party, it fits them.
It's a vote grabber. I wonder how many people in the GOP actually personally care about banning abortion and how many just use it for votes.
Cerberus.Kodaijin
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By Cerberus.Kodaijin 2011-07-05 16:53:23
Bahamut.Jetackuu said: Faith by definition is void of evidence
fixed that for you.
Bahamut.Aeronis
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By Bahamut.Aeronis 2011-07-05 17:21:54
Lakshmi.Flavin said: Fairy.Spence said: /*** sigh Want to save space on this website? Get rid of the entire Politics and Religion section. If you have such an issue with these threads why do you bother to come in here in the first place? It's not his personal issue, it's the fact that the DB is becoming overloaded.
Carbuncle.Mightymog
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By Carbuncle.Mightymog 2011-07-05 18:31:58
Phoenix.Neosutra said:
That's cute.
You think this is a debate on where life begins, and not where person-hood begins.
I apologize, it was not my intention to be cute and perhaps misleading here. When I said where life begins I meant person-hood or however else you would like to describe it, I thought I made that clear in my post but I can see where I might not of.
My point is that I believe a person becomes a person at that moment of conception. Otherwise where is that cut off? When does it stop becoming a fetus and become a baby? Can you abort a baby that has gone past its due date? Can you abort a baby as long as it is still attached the cord? If you botch an abortion and the baby comes out alive is it still ok to kill it than?
I understand this can be a polarizing topic, on one hand, one-side believes it is fighting for peoples rights, and the other side believes they are fighting for peoples lives. Regardless of which side you are one, you have to respect where the other side is coming from.
Lakshmi.Jaerik
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By Lakshmi.Jaerik 2011-07-05 18:39:08
Carbuncle.Mightymog said: Otherwise where is that cut off? When does it stop becoming a fetus and become a baby? Can you abort a baby that has gone past its due date? Can you abort a baby as long as it is still attached the cord? If you botch an abortion and the baby comes out alive is it still ok to kill it than? We had this debate back in the 70's. It was a very long process through the judicial system, culminating in the Roe v. Wade Supreme Court decision.
The choice agreed upon by all was a compromise, based around the concept of "viability," or when the fetus could realistically survive on its own (with medical aid) without the aid of the mother. Medically, this tends to be around the beginning of the third trimester, or 24-26 weeks.
Abortions are not legal anywhere in the country past this date, unless in cases of rape, incest, or to preserve the life of the mother. And the Hyde Amendment has prevented all federal tax funds from going towards the funding of any abortion since 1976.
[+]
Phoenix.Neosutra
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By Phoenix.Neosutra 2011-07-05 18:52:47
Jaerik pretty much summed it up.
The "if you don't put the line at conception then you can put it anywhere" argument is sensationalist ***. No one is talking about dropping a baby into a trashcan after it's born. In fact, the number of "late term abortions" are in the VAST minority of all abortions, and are typically done to save the mother's life.
People need to stop acting like making a reasonable decision based on viability is the same as saying "*** babies".
If you honestly think conception = personhood, you need to start having some meaningful conversations with your sperm.
Phoenix.Neosutra
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By Phoenix.Neosutra 2011-07-05 19:38:39
Must be a short conversation.
Carbuncle.Mightymog
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By Carbuncle.Mightymog 2011-07-05 19:58:01
Just because something has been decided by the government does not mean we as citizens do not have the right to work to overturn it if we believe we have just cause.
The third trimester line was decided as a compromise, but that does not mean it was "agreed upon by all". I believe there have been cases of premature babies surviving even as early as being born at 19 weeks. I don't think I am saying anyone is saying "*** babies" I am just trying to explain in a rational and reasonable way why, I and those like me, think like we do. (and when I say those like me I do not mean the extremest who believe even birth control is wrong)
Phoenix.Neosutra
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By Phoenix.Neosutra 2011-07-05 20:14:36
You say you're not an extremist who thinks birth control is bad..
Are you an extremist who thinks personhood begins at conception?
And sadly no: This is a democracy, but it isn't majority rule. Civil and human rights will always be held above what "most people want".
But keep breeding more red necks to vote idiots into office solely on the principle of abortion and eventually you'll get enough conservative appointed judges that even judicial procedure won't stop the US turning all women into incubators.
Ragnarok.Beef
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By Ragnarok.Beef 2011-07-06 06:39:49
everything would be better if people didn't try to run other peoples lives.
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By Shiva.Xellith 2011-07-06 07:09:08
Phoenix.Sehachan said: Bahamut.Jetackuu said: Phoenix.Sehachan said: I have a lot against people that don't reason with mind
that is all people of faith... That's not true. I know people that believe in god but aren't dumb.
Never generalize.
DOES NOT COMPUTE
Fenrir.Ilax
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By Fenrir.Ilax 2011-07-06 07:19:40
Ragnarok.Beef said: everything would be better if people didn't try to run other peoples lives.
remove all religion and everything fixed. (would also fix many other thing too)
@Phoenix.Sehachan don't mix up who believe into religion and what is religion rule/story line/ethic etc.
Edit: I believe we all should follow a life model: moral, religion, science or it would be total chaos. But there the problem now day, no one respect other believe and they try "force/convert" them. Is getting even worse since the more we go the more every country become multi-cultural, and we have to do more sacrifice to please everyone.
Take Canadian problem, they forced an GIM in montreal to hide window because it was shocking muselam when they see people without t-shirt, is kind of that ***that should not be respected into any country.
Anyway, just my 5 cent on it.
Siren.Mosin said: have you ever been making breakfast, cracked an egg, & thought "why can't all abortions be this delicious?" Lol, that was the best part of this thread.
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By Siren.Inuyushi 2011-07-06 07:27:29
Carbuncle.Flionheart said: Phoenix.Neosutra said: LISTEN TO ME
LISTEN TO ME
LISTEN TO ME
LISTEN TO ME
LISTEN TO ME
LISTEN TO ME
LISTEN TO ME
LISTEN TO ME
LISTEN TO ME
LISTEN TO ME
LISTEN TO ME
LISTEN TO ME
LISTEN TO ME
LISTEN TO ME
LISTEN TO ME
Phoenix.Sehachan
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By Phoenix.Sehachan 2011-07-06 07:40:08
Fenrir.Ilax said: @Phoenix.Sehachan don't mix up who believe into religion and what is religion rule/story line/ethic etc. That's what I meant.
I have nothing against religious people. I hate Vatican and people that are too..ignorant? to even understand that Adam and Eve is a legend meant to be used as a metaphore and not the origin of the world.
vs Kansas:
Kansas to Shut Down All but One Abortion Clinic Friday | Mother Jones
http://motherjones.com/mojo/2011/06/kansas-shut-down-all-abortion-clinics-friday
Quote: This story has been updated below.
It's official. Every abortion provider in the state of Kansas has been denied a license to continue operating as of July 1. As we reported last week, strict new state laws put in place this month threatened to close the remaining three abortion clinics in Kansas. The staff of one of these facilities, a Planned Parenthood clinic in Overland Park, initially thought their operation could survive the strict new standards. But on Thursday afternoon, Planned Parenthood announced that the Overland Park clinic has thus far been denied a license to continue operating—effectively cutting off access to legal abortion in the entire state.
The new law, which takes effect Friday, establishes new standards for abortion providers—standards apparently designed to make compliance difficult. The rules require changes to the size and number of rooms, compel clinics to have additional supplies on hand, and even mandate room temperatures for the facilities. Given that the rules were released less than two weeks before clinics were expected to be in compliance, many providers knew they wouldn't be able to obtain a license to continue operating. The laws, often called "targeted regulation of abortion providers," or TRAP laws, are an increasingly common legislative maneuver to limit access to abortion by redering it tough, if not impossible, for providers to comply.
With today's announcement that the Overland Park clinic was denied a license, Kansas becomes the first state to effectively make the legally protected right to obtain abortion services moot. One clinic in Kansas has already filed suit against the new rules, and a hearing on that suit is planned for Friday. Planned Parenthood is also expected to sue. The clinics are also expected to seek an injunction to block the law from being enforced. UPDATE: Planned Parenthood has filed suit. They are seeking an emergency injunction to allow their clinic to remain open while the lawsuit is pending.
"The women of Kansas waiting on their scheduled procedures will pay the immediate price for this outrageous and flagrant exertion of the radical GOP’s legislative muscle under the Brownback administration," said Kansas NOW in a statement Thursday, referring to conservative Republican Gov. Sam Brownback. "The freedom and right to legal healthcare has been denied to the women of Kansas."
UPDATE: In a statement issued Thursday evening, Peter Brownlie, president of Planned Parenthood of Kansas and Mid-Missouri, seemed to hold out some hope that its clinic could still obtain a license to continue operating, even as the organization sought an injuction to block the law from taking effect. "We have been targeted in this bill and Kansas women are the ones who will suffer if their health care is taken away," said Brownlie. "This is radical, extreme government intrusion into private health care."
UPDATE 5:45 PM EST THURSDAY: The Associated Press is reporting that the Kansas Department of Health and Environment, after initially denying a license to Planned Parenthood, has now changed their mind. Stay tuned for more updates. PP said inspectors were back at the clinic Thursday reevaluating it, after earlier this week indicating that they would not be able to obtain one.
UPDATE 6:08 PM EST THURSDAY: Planned Parenthood just announced that the health department has, in fact, decided to grant it a license to continue operating. The PP clinic in Overland Park will remain open. "Notwithstanding that the regulations are burdensome and unnecessary, the findings of the inspection indicate what we have known and said throughout this process: Planned Parenthood operates with the highest standards of patient care and has rigorous safety procedures in place," Brownlie said.
UPDATE 7:15 PM EST FRIDAY: A federal judge in Kansas City has blocked the new abortion clinic regulations from taking effect.
Kansas Judge Blocks Abortion Clinic Regs | Mother Jones
http://motherjones.com/mojo/2011/07/kansas-judge-blocks-abortion-clinic-regs
Quote: A judge in Kansas has blocked the state's strict new regulations on abortion providers from taking effect, a move that will allow all three clinics in the state to continue offering services, the Kansas City Star reports.
On Friday afternoon, U.S District Judge Carlos Murguia granted a request from two clinics—Aid for Women in Kansas City and the Center for Women's Health in Overland Park—to grant temporary relief from the new rules, which took effect July 1. The clinics were denied a license to continue operating after the state issued new rules on June 17 that would have required both clinics to make major changes to their facilities. A third clinic, owned by Planned Parenthood, was granted a license to continue operating on Thursday.
The injunction will remain in place until the court hears the formal challenge to the state's regulations.
"This is a tremendous victory for women in Kansas and against the underhanded efforts of anti-choice politicians to shut down abortion providers in the state," said Center for Reproductive Rights president Nancy Northup, which joined with the clinics in filing the legal challenge to the law, in a statement Friday evening. "The facts were clear—this licensing process had absolutely nothing to do with patient health or safety and everything to do with political shenanigans."
The Kansas legislature passed a new law in April creating a new designation for abortion providers under the state's licensing system, and directed the Department of Health and Environment to issue new rules. The department issued 36-pages of rules on June 17 (though the clinics did not receive copies until June 20), mandating things like the size of waiting and recovery rooms, the number of bathrooms, and the required temperatures for each room in the facility. Clinic owners argued that it was impossible to meet the new standards, given that they were released just two weeks before the clinics were required to comply. Moreover, they argued, the rules had little to do with protecting patients and were designed to shut down the clinics.
This type of law, often called "targeted regulation of abortion providers," or "TRAP" laws, isn't exactly new or unique, but Kansas' would have gone farther than others in actually shutting down abortion providers.
Kate Sheppard covers energy and environmental politics in Mother Jones' Washington bureau. For more of her stories, click here. She Tweets here. Get Kate Sheppard's RSS feed.
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