So, I was on the Twilight body page today and everybody seemed to have been *** riding the *** out of it.
Seriously? It's not that great of a body. I certainly don't see it as a "Fulltime body piece for everyone who can wear it" "if you can ear this, there's no need to carry any other body" etc. "This beats adaman hauberk!"
It has 25 acc, big whoop. Who needs acc gear anymore? really? Now that we have. I guess nobody knows what an x-hit build is. Store tp on the body, anyone?
WS body, alright, for sam. War and drk? Unless I was using a ws w/ a secondary modifier, I wouldn't even use this over grim cuirass. Again, acc is dead at this point in the game, you'll be fine with Grim. STR matches up and I'll take the 30 attack over the acc/dex. As for DRG, I wouldn't use this over af3+2 body, either. Gain 1 str 1 dex, 11 acc, lose 14 attack.
It's a nice piece, sure, I'll give you that, but to think it's not beaten, or to think it's a full time piece for all the jobs that can wear it is a lol'able thought.
Twilight Gear
Twilight gear
You're very right in your statement of course, Tigerwoods.
This body is still vey useful though at least as WS piece for WAR (Raging Rush, Rampage), DRK (insert any WS, any), PLD (which we all know has terrible accuracy and lame mods), SAM and BST and as an alternate Refresh body to Ares, Vermillion, Gaudy? Heck, I think it's also the highest CHR a BST could get for charms? Idk, lol
Everything is situational
You can't expect people to stay cool and rational when SE comes out with a free (R/Ex > some Mil$ gear) item that beats the long fallen champion of DD bodies - Ebody - with a touch of Refresh which only Ares would offer (to less jobs) and, most of all, a new skin design!
If SE comes out with new endgame that takes place outside of Abyssea, which is something you'd expect since they've announced the level cap to go up to 99 and didn't give any input as to where this cap will take us, then that Acc won't be bad either.
If it weren't for Abyssea being such a fun playground with seemingly unlimited buffs and the chance to use an item to turn God mode on, a lot of the X-Hit builds all of us have gotten use to would never take place.
This body is still vey useful though at least as WS piece for WAR (Raging Rush, Rampage), DRK (insert any WS, any), PLD (which we all know has terrible accuracy and lame mods), SAM and BST and as an alternate Refresh body to Ares, Vermillion, Gaudy? Heck, I think it's also the highest CHR a BST could get for charms? Idk, lol
Everything is situational
You can't expect people to stay cool and rational when SE comes out with a free (R/Ex > some Mil$ gear) item that beats the long fallen champion of DD bodies - Ebody - with a touch of Refresh which only Ares would offer (to less jobs) and, most of all, a new skin design!
If SE comes out with new endgame that takes place outside of Abyssea, which is something you'd expect since they've announced the level cap to go up to 99 and didn't give any input as to where this cap will take us, then that Acc won't be bad either.
If it weren't for Abyssea being such a fun playground with seemingly unlimited buffs and the chance to use an item to turn God mode on, a lot of the X-Hit builds all of us have gotten use to would never take place.
[+]
Bahamut.Raenryong said:
Also when people are saying RDM > WHM pre-Abyssea, this has not been true for at least a year prior to Abyssea. SE did a really good job boosting WHM, but now it's overpowered.
For the sake of analogy, let's pretend WAR is the ONLY viable DD by a decently long shot and anyone /war can DD almost as well as a dedicated DD. Would you then say WAR is overpowered, or would you argue that because WAR is the dedicated damage dealing job and can't tank as well as MNK, NIN etc, it deserves to be ahead by miles and miles - and some whm/war can almost outdo your DRG or your MNK etc?
You're the only one who thinks /WHM alone qualifies you for a healer. Most jobs get ***for mp with /WHM just for starters.
Pre Abyssea vs 2-3 years ago the only thing that really changed to as you put it bring the WHM back in as the best healer were cure potency gear which (I was gone from the game for a couple years) my understanding each piece took a good amount of time to acquire and each piece was for a pretty minimal amount %, people struggled to hit cap where as now a ton of people are hitting cap easily.
Fenrir.Snick said:
If you're on WHM and not enfeebling, quit FFXI. If all a RDM is adding is their enfeebles, it's hardly worth having them there. I don't know the exact math, but I'm pretty sure Para/Slow 2 are not that great compared to the normal variety.
Also with MP being unlimited and with the high amount of cures going around, it's not hard to cap Holy potency for some decent nukes every so often. Just saying~
I am comparing a WHM to a RDM for enfeebling.. a RDM is much better. That is what I am saying, do you disagree?
Also nuking every so often or throwing in a nuke isn't the same as your role in the party changing to nuker.
Gilgamesh.Tweeek said:
I am comparing a WHM to a RDM for enfeebling.. a RDM is much better. That is what I am saying, do you disagree?
Also nuking every so often or throwing in a nuke isn't the same as your role in the party changing to nuker.
Also nuking every so often or throwing in a nuke isn't the same as your role in the party changing to nuker.
was going to add but you replied too quickly: I also never said that the only thing a RDM should be doing is enfeebling, as most people know RDMs are expected to do it all, at all times.
I don't know where you got the idea that I said the only thing a RDM can do or should do in a party is enfeeb, all I have ever said is they are the best job in the game at it.
I don't know where you got the idea that I said the only thing a RDM can do or should do in a party is enfeeb, all I have ever said is they are the best job in the game at it.
What's "it all" exactly?
Specify please. If you have a WHM, a RDM is better off coming as a DD job~
Specify please. If you have a WHM, a RDM is better off coming as a DD job~
ok wtf is going on in this thread, I though it was a twillight related thing.
Nothing will ever beat WHM in healing.
Nothing will ever beat rdm enfeebles and ability to solo stuff.
SCH isnt better then BLM for nuking, goddamnit.
And twillight scythe is cool stuff.
Nothing will ever beat WHM in healing.
Nothing will ever beat rdm enfeebles and ability to solo stuff.
SCH isnt better then BLM for nuking, goddamnit.
And twillight scythe is cool stuff.
[+]
Obviously what's going to be expected from a RDM is going to depend on the purpose of the party.. name a purpose or objective of a party and I'll tell you what the RDMs I play with do for that party.
Believe it or not snick not every single party on FFXI's main objective is to walk around with a MNK to farm equipment proc'ing blue!!
it's not that difficult of a concept to understand that RDM is a better enfeebler with A+ compared to WHM sitting at C. If you think all RDMs are useless compared to a WHM then I guess you know a lot less about the game than I had initially presumed. It sure seemed like you knew a lot about the game before, maybe you've only played with shitty RDMs? I have no idea.. to me it's one of the most versatile jobs in the game.
Believe it or not snick not every single party on FFXI's main objective is to walk around with a MNK to farm equipment proc'ing blue!!
it's not that difficult of a concept to understand that RDM is a better enfeebler with A+ compared to WHM sitting at C. If you think all RDMs are useless compared to a WHM then I guess you know a lot less about the game than I had initially presumed. It sure seemed like you knew a lot about the game before, maybe you've only played with shitty RDMs? I have no idea.. to me it's one of the most versatile jobs in the game.
Gilgamesh.Tweeek said:
Obviously what's going to be expected from a RDM is going to depend on the purpose of the party.. name a purpose or objective of a party and I'll tell you what the RDMs I play with do for that party.
Believe it or not snick not every single party on FFXI's main objective is to walk around with a MNK to farm equipment proc'ing blue!!
it's not that difficult of a concept to understand that RDM is a better enfeebler with A+ compared to WHM sitting at C. If you think all RDMs are useless compared to a WHM then I guess you know a lot less about the game than I had initially presumed. It sure seemed like you knew a lot about the game before, maybe you've only played with shitty RDMs? I have no idea.. to me it's one of the most versatile jobs in the game.
Believe it or not snick not every single party on FFXI's main objective is to walk around with a MNK to farm equipment proc'ing blue!!
it's not that difficult of a concept to understand that RDM is a better enfeebler with A+ compared to WHM sitting at C. If you think all RDMs are useless compared to a WHM then I guess you know a lot less about the game than I had initially presumed. It sure seemed like you knew a lot about the game before, maybe you've only played with shitty RDMs? I have no idea.. to me it's one of the most versatile jobs in the game.
Consider the following:
Slow/Para II are completely unnecessary for anything. RDM gets exclusive use of Addle (for now), but even that is a luxury rather than a necessity. WHM can easily cap dMND and has no issues sticking tier 1 debuffs (nobody needs (m)acc etc). Even Shinryu doesn't need a RDM, and I'm not talking about brew strats.
So what else do RDMs do that would justify their occupying a party slot? Well, they cure. I think we've covered RDM's insufficiency that aspect in sufficient detail by now, so I won't elaborate. They also nuke. Here, we have considerations on both sides. RDM is your best choice for a nuking job in the current environment from a pure damage standpoint (Chainspell is one hell of a drug, among other considerations), so if that's your goal then by all means bring a RDM. However, at present the goal in nearly every fight is to proc some form of weakness. BLM is a better grellow job than RDM and is nearly as effective DPS-wise, plus it brings stun and greater CC capacity to the table with optimal subjobs whereas RDM would need to /BLM. It also solos time extensions faster than RDM. Also, melee will DPS faster than mages, especially once you factor in managing damage taken due to having hate. What next? Ah yes, RDMs buff. WHM has haste, nobody needs Refresh II, and Phalanx is a bandaid on a severed limb when everything hits for 300+.
So yeah, it's versatile but not in any way that really matters unless you're going for solo/duo with a non-melee strat (enjoy not seeing ***drop). I guess that would make it a decent job for... farming T3 VNM pops?
Ironic how I leveled RDM for utility and never use it :\
Quote:
You're the only one who thinks /WHM alone qualifies you for a healer. Most jobs get ***for mp with /WHM just for starters.
In any situation where RDM is a good healer, you could have just about any job/WHM with appropriate Atmas healing.
In any situation where it isn't (read: anything serious), you can't because only overpowered WHM is a healer at that point.
Also Nightfyre's post is pretty spot on. I love my RDM and still consider it a very useful job for numerous things, but it is underpowered in a support role. Or rather, any mage job that isn't WHM is currently (unless you have too many people when it doesn't really matter).
Fenrir.Nightfyre said:
Gilgamesh.Tweeek said:
Obviously what's going to be expected from a RDM is going to depend on the purpose of the party.. name a purpose or objective of a party and I'll tell you what the RDMs I play with do for that party.
Believe it or not snick not every single party on FFXI's main objective is to walk around with a MNK to farm equipment proc'ing blue!!
it's not that difficult of a concept to understand that RDM is a better enfeebler with A+ compared to WHM sitting at C. If you think all RDMs are useless compared to a WHM then I guess you know a lot less about the game than I had initially presumed. It sure seemed like you knew a lot about the game before, maybe you've only played with shitty RDMs? I have no idea.. to me it's one of the most versatile jobs in the game.
Believe it or not snick not every single party on FFXI's main objective is to walk around with a MNK to farm equipment proc'ing blue!!
it's not that difficult of a concept to understand that RDM is a better enfeebler with A+ compared to WHM sitting at C. If you think all RDMs are useless compared to a WHM then I guess you know a lot less about the game than I had initially presumed. It sure seemed like you knew a lot about the game before, maybe you've only played with shitty RDMs? I have no idea.. to me it's one of the most versatile jobs in the game.
Consider the following:
Slow/Para II are completely unnecessary for anything. RDM gets exclusive use of Addle (for now), but even that is a luxury rather than a necessity. WHM can easily cap dMND and has no issues sticking tier 1 debuffs (nobody needs (m)acc etc). Even Shinryu doesn't need a RDM, and I'm not talking about brew strats.
So what else do RDMs do that would justify their occupying a party slot? Well, they cure. I think we've covered RDM's insufficiency that aspect in sufficient detail by now, so I won't elaborate. They also nuke. Here, we have considerations on both sides. RDM is your best choice for a nuking job in the current environment from a pure damage standpoint (Chainspell is one hell of a drug), so if that's your goal then by all means bring a RDM. However, at present the goal in nearly every fight is to proc some form of weakness. BLM is a better grellow job than RDM and is nearly as effective DPS-wise, plus it brings stun and greater CC capacity to the table with optimal subjobs whereas RDM would need to /BLM. It can also solos time extensions faster than RDM. Also, melee will DPS faster than mages, especially once you factor in managing damage taken due to having hate. What next? Ah yes, RDMs buff. WHM has haste, nobody needs Refresh II, and Phalanx is a bandaid on a severed limb when everything hits for 300+.
So yeah, it's versatile but not in any way that really matters unless you're going for solo/duo with a non-melee strat (enjoy not seeing ***drop). I guess that would make it a decent job for... farming T3 VNM pops?
Ironic how I leveled RDM for utility and never use it :\
Bahamut.Raenryong said:
Also Nightfyre's post is pretty spot on. I love my RDM and still consider it a very useful job for numerous things, but it is underpowered in a support role. Or rather, any mage job that isn't WHM is currently (unless you have too many people when it doesn't really matter).
It's not that RDM sucks, it's still a great job, but WHM is just ridiculously OP right now~
You're just naive if you think there's any sense of balance in this game right now.
Gilgamesh.Tweeek said:
it's not that difficult of a concept to understand that RDM is a better enfeebler with A+ compared to WHM sitting at C. If you think all RDMs are useless compared to a WHM then I guess you know a lot less about the game than I had initially presumed. It sure seemed like you knew a lot about the game before, maybe you've only played with shitty RDMs? I have no idea.. to me it's one of the most versatile jobs in the game.
>suggesting that whm don't sub sch all the time
Seems you don't know anything about your own job, really.
Fenrir.Snick said:
I'd say SCH is a better nuker than BLM atm <_<
This doesn't even get into the fact againg.
[+]
Cerberus.Vaness said:
I have both rdm and whm to 90, rdm can cap mind as easy as a whm can and from my own experience, rdm para/slow beat whm by far.Whm can enfeeb good, yes.It can help alot in situation where a rdm isnt there.But it will never be better then have a rdm dedicaced to enfeeb/trigger grellow/help cure/haste/refresh/DoT when the whm is 100% focus on DDs.Caus yes, sometimes unexpected stuff happen when you cast haste as whm QQ.
Slow2/Para2 are better than WHM's Slow1/Para1 - nobody is arguing this. People are saying why bring a RDM when you can bring a DD instead? The additional benefits gained from II over I do not warrant the lost DD slot.
BLM is better at triggering Gryellow, haste/refresh are not exclusive to RDM (and a 3/tick difference is trivial with Atma) and DoT damage is a complete joke.
If you have 18 people or whatever, sure - bring whatever you want. But if you're in a situation where you want to be/have to be picky, RDM is not a job of choice.
I had totally forgot about Blizz5 tbh, and I haven't really paid much attention to nuking period this update~ Last update it definitely looked like SCH was at least close to pulling ahead, but looking more into it BLM really did get some nice boosts~
Bahamut.Dasva said:
Fenrir.Snick said:
I'd say SCH is a better nuker than BLM atm <_<
This doesn't even get into the fact againg.
I also have final vegeta on my server that trow some 8k nuke once in a while.
I love sch, its very usefull caus it can cure and nuke (so is rdm most will say) but with a little + then rdm.Sch can kinda do cure 6 and get trow some pretty sexy nukes, but never NEVER it will be better then blm in dmg.
[+]
Bahamut.Raenryong said:
Cerberus.Vaness said:
I have both rdm and whm to 90, rdm can cap mind as easy as a whm can and from my own experience, rdm para/slow beat whm by far.Whm can enfeeb good, yes.It can help alot in situation where a rdm isnt there.But it will never be better then have a rdm dedicaced to enfeeb/trigger grellow/help cure/haste/refresh/DoT when the whm is 100% focus on DDs.Caus yes, sometimes unexpected stuff happen when you cast haste as whm QQ.
BLM is better at triggering Gryellow, haste/refresh are not exclusive to RDM (and a 3/tick difference is trivial with Atma) and DoT damage is a complete joke.
If you have 18 people or whatever, sure - bring whatever you want. But if you're in a situation where you want to be/have to be picky, RDM is not a job of choice.
But smaller things I find rdm alot more useful. Yes blm can trigger alot more but they also tend to die more and having one do all the trigger spells it can... well even with douse is kinda haterific. Though it is funny being able to manawall with like 1500 mp and survive when the whole alliance wipes cause someone decided to fight jala...
Cerberus.Vaness said:
I have both rdm and whm to 90, rdm can cap mind as easy as a whm can and from my own experience, rdm para/slow beat whm by far.
Quote:
But it will never be better then have a rdm dedicaced to enfeeb/
Quote:
trigger grellow/
Quote:
help cure/
Quote:
haste/
Quote:
refresh/
Quote:
DoT
OH yeah I haven't updated my blm gear besides trial staffs in months lol. So no af3 even +1s. But yeah if I had a consere mp proc on those nukes... ***
[+]
Bahamut.Dasva said:
Bahamut.Raenryong said:
Cerberus.Vaness said:
I have both rdm and whm to 90, rdm can cap mind as easy as a whm can and from my own experience, rdm para/slow beat whm by far.Whm can enfeeb good, yes.It can help alot in situation where a rdm isnt there.But it will never be better then have a rdm dedicaced to enfeeb/trigger grellow/help cure/haste/refresh/DoT when the whm is 100% focus on DDs.Caus yes, sometimes unexpected stuff happen when you cast haste as whm QQ.
BLM is better at triggering Gryellow, haste/refresh are not exclusive to RDM (and a 3/tick difference is trivial with Atma) and DoT damage is a complete joke.
If you have 18 people or whatever, sure - bring whatever you want. But if you're in a situation where you want to be/have to be picky, RDM is not a job of choice.
But smaller things I find rdm alot more useful. Yes blm can trigger alot more but they also tend to die more and having one do all the trigger spells it can... well even with douse is kinda haterific. Though it is funny being able to manawall with like 1500 mp and survive when the whole alliance wipes cause someone decided to fight jala...
Bahamut.Dasva said:
Bahamut.Raenryong said:
Cerberus.Vaness said:
I have both rdm and whm to 90, rdm can cap mind as easy as a whm can and from my own experience, rdm para/slow beat whm by far.Whm can enfeeb good, yes.It can help alot in situation where a rdm isnt there.But it will never be better then have a rdm dedicaced to enfeeb/trigger grellow/help cure/haste/refresh/DoT when the whm is 100% focus on DDs.Caus yes, sometimes unexpected stuff happen when you cast haste as whm QQ.
BLM is better at triggering Gryellow, haste/refresh are not exclusive to RDM (and a 3/tick difference is trivial with Atma) and DoT damage is a complete joke.
If you have 18 people or whatever, sure - bring whatever you want. But if you're in a situation where you want to be/have to be picky, RDM is not a job of choice.
But smaller things I find rdm alot more useful. Yes blm can trigger alot more but they also tend to die more and having one do all the trigger spells it can... well even with douse is kinda haterific. Though it is funny being able to manawall with like 1500 mp and survive when the whole alliance wipes cause someone decided to fight jala...
Yeah if I'm coming blm to trigger it's usually cause I'm the only one able to come blm with all the trigger spells... therefore I'm the only blm coming... I'd love to have a rdm or sch there to help divy up the hate for me lol. It's to the point I put on -emnity/refresh/+mp and maybe fast cast atmas only now... well and sometimes that absorb one from melo melo. Gunna have to start nuking naked too maybe
[+]
I haven't been a RDM main since 2004 or 2005 on my old server so I'm not going to come in here and explain wtf they do, if you guys want to keep thinking there is no reason to ever have a RDM in your party then don't invite them i don't care.
I play with RDMs all the time they are far from *** useless.
I play with RDMs all the time they are far from *** useless.
[+]
Gilgamesh.Tweeek said:
I haven't been a RDM main since 2004 or 2005 on my old server so I'm not going to come in here and explain wtf they do, if you guys want to keep thinking their is no reason to ever have a RDM in your party then don't invite them i don't care.
I play with RDMs all the time they are far from *** useless.
I play with RDMs all the time they are far from *** useless.
Fenrir.Snick said:
Hey remember that time you didn't know what Enfeebling magic skill did? Or that time you didn't know what Light arts did?
Gilgamesh.Tweeek said:
I haven't been a RDM main since 2004 or 2005 on my old server so I'm not going to come in here and explain wtf they do, if you guys want to keep thinking their is no reason to ever have a RDM in your party then don't invite them i don't care.
Quote:
I play with RDMs all the time they are far from *** useless.
My blu/whm is a much better healer than my rdm. Enough said.
Lakshmi.Aurilius said:
My blu/whm is a much better healer than my rdm. Enough said.
/Sch gets haste? (Serious question my scholar is only 40)
Fenrir.Nightfyre said:
Gilgamesh.Tweeek said:
I haven't been a RDM main since 2004 or 2005 on my old server so I'm not going to come in here and explain wtf they do, if you guys want to keep thinking their is no reason to ever have a RDM in your party then don't invite them i don't care.
There is no possible counter to points made. He's just happy with the state of WHM because he is one.
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