Your Opinion: PLD And Haubergeon +1

I'm just curious what everyone's opinion is on a Paladin using a haubergeon +1. Only for endgame merit parties? Leveling at all? I've heard mixed responses to this so I'm just curious what people think in regards to it.

Back in the day when there was a paladin on my linkshell, he would use pld armor when he was wanting to tank and a haub when he wanted to do damage (like in campaign battles.) But I am sure as heck no pally, so don't take my word for gospel, either.

lol if u can find a meripo who will let u dd pld then sure... but not too often will u find a dd pld.. plus now with atonement.. you dont even really need hauby+1 to do dmg. just hate ^^

Even as a 75, tanking several things (Sky gods, ZNM stuff, Fafnir, Cerb when he isn't being a ***, even Ultima/Omega etc) works best using a DD build and Dorado Sushi, spamming Atonement for 750 dmg~

I use Haub :3 Works good :)

While not a must, a Hauby (NQ or HQ) can be pretty nice for a Paladin EXPing at 59+. I usually use it over my gallant/valor surcoat since the added melee damage helps with hate.

/welcome Corrderio to ffxiah forums^^

Exp: Haubergeon +1 is your best body piece option.

Endgame:

Any time I can hit the mob to gain TP for Atonement/Chivalry, I will idle in a Haubergeon +1.

Any time I cannot, I will idle in a Vermillion Cloak (Ares Body would be better).

In both cases, I still swap in full enmity/-mdt/-pdt/shield/curing/cure cheats and such gear, so it gains a tremendous amount of efficiency.

Haubergeon +1 is a VERY good body for Paladin. Although it is not widely accepted, the results of using it speak for themselves.

D: Hey it's Corrderio from Neko Sentai!

I was made fun of by some JP in my group. They said {Haubergeon +1}? then no {Healing Magic!} :(

Actually I'd like to add something. What is a great DD build for paladin at 65? Atk earrings? Acc rings? etc? Any suggestions?

They are probably thinking like it's 2004, not 2009. ToAU mobs are designed differently, and thus making it acceptable to wear Haub(+1).
They might have felt you were taking too much damage in Haub(+1), so that's why they made that comment. *shrug* Stuff is situational.

Well it was Date Eurica.. so they should understand that the haub wont affect the breath damage...

Would Amement mantle +1, merman's earring, woodsman rings, be pushing it with the haub?

In my opinion, every PLD in any party should use DD gear. No amount of damage mitigation will make exp go faster, and the extra damage not only means faster exp, but you also hold hate better. On top of that, PLD, even decked out in full DD gear, is still going to make a better tank than almost any other job in your party, especially if they're not geared for tanking themselves.

Keep AF Feet, throw on a Buckler Earring, gear for full DD in all other slots (sword/shield). Use High Breath Mantle or Amemet +1 as appropriate.

EDIT: I am talking strictly exp here. Endgame, Cerberus Mantle covers all of the bases in one :p

Ok so when I get a whm complaining to me about what I'm wearing, should I just tell them to shove it?

When people complain to me about whatever I'm wearing, I tell them to shove it. Or, you know, buy me the piece of gear they think I need so badly...

Then again, I generally gear up pretty decent, so it doesn't come up much.

As long as you're not wearing wet paper towels for armor, I think you should tell em to shut their pie hole.

What I have on:

-Macuahuitl +1
-Iron Ram Shield
-Bibiki Seashell
-Gallant Coronet
-Peacock Amulet
-Buckler Earring
-Merman's Earring
-Haubergeon +1
-Gallant Gauntlets
-Woodsman Ring x2
-Amemet Mantle +1
-Potent Belt
-Gallant Breeches
-Gallant Leggins

The WHM was saying stuff like "wwwwVIT+7wwww HQBodywwwwwwwwwwwwwwwWWMMMWWWww"

[quote
^This. Just be sure to use shield gear (AF Feet, Buckler Earring, and Shield Troque) over DD gear. PCC can be used over shield torque depending on your accuracy I suppose, however Buckler Earring/AF Feet is pretty much a given for what to wear. More shield blocks = less damage taken and Shield Mastery gives more TP, which makes you WS more.

But yeah, tell people to screw off if they complain. I can tell you from experience using a Hauby and a mix of Accuracy and Enmity gear will help you manage hate better.

Please note though for merit PTs I'd go full DD, dual wielding, haste gear, etc. However you'll probably be doing a lot of level syncs as a Paladin sadly.

If it's more fun to use DD items then do it IMO..

As a WHM myself- I'd rather see the PLD wear his DD items than worry about making my job 'harder'.. it's not harder- just have to play a little differently and if they can't do that then it's not really your problem.

Ah yes. Forgot to mention the Shield skill items. Shield skill should always be taken over DD, with few exceptions (5 STR > 1 Shield, which I don't think you can even get a single shield skill on a piece of gear). Beyond that, just go DD all the way.

look into byrnie+1 plds... that -20 evasion and -5 agi sux sometimes. this piece has all the stats of your AF and then some, xcept the enmity. shield skill should always be worn over dd gear. STR is WS macro only ppl. atk, def, and skills in general will help you out more in the long run than a stat like STR, VIT, DEX etc. STR is a big WS modifier. but i guarantee you, +20 STr on a pld would b no different than one with +2, other than weapon skills.
edit: o yeah, the more dmg you take, the more enmity you lose. so best to not deck yourself out in dd gear guys and gals.

The problem with PLD's using a DD build in xp pt is that they both lose the +emnity stats on most of their gear and the extra dmg they do only just balances that out while at the same time losing a lot of VIT and defense making them a mp sponge just like any DD.

Erucas are different story, they will rape you with their breath either way, but other mobs such as colibri you can reduce the damage they do a lot with proper "brick wall" tanking gear and max emnity build will allow you to hold hate even off a 1.2k sidewinder if you know what your doing.

There is a big stereotype towards DD PLD and really if you have the money to max out your PLD's DD potential then you should be ok, but a lot of people will say "pld is a brick wall not a DD" lol

PLD DD would be good against Imps however as having amnesia and silence on you a lot reeling out constant dmg will help you hold hate better while voke and flash are unavailable, also Swift Blade -> Tachi Gekko for darkness SC will rape everything so get a SAM and set this up preferably with him /thf for TA, will make tanking easy.

Most people might say that Paladin is a brick wall, and that's their opinion I suppose.

If you compare the defense of the haubergeon and gallant surcoat, you'll notice the difference is like nil; you will notice next to no difference in damage taken. Additionally, you're going to hold hate much better with +10acc/+10att/+str/+dex than you are with +2 Enmity if you have pretty much -any- other dd gear at all.

Woodsman rings are fairly cheap now, if you sell off your vit rings (for the love of God if you're tanking in vit rings... please sell them. :) )

Life belt or potent belt, either are great waist pieces unless you can use both Swift Belt and W.turban coupled with another haste piece to bump you over 10% haste.

Tiphia sting can be easily easily camped, or you can quest Smart Grenade for your ammo slot for free. Hidden effect +4 attk.

The Fourth Division Gauntlets from Campaign that give like +5 acc in the hand slot are a great dd piece for cheap as well.

RK Breeches for the legs... Conquest Points from Bastok...

Amemet mantle for the back... also... el cheapo...

Buckler earring and af boots stay on of course, as long as you're using a shield. Don't use Mac+1 ... use Company Sword for the hidden DMG+ unless you have Joyeuse. If you have both, consider going /Nin and using Company in the main and Joytoy in the off hand. Also if you're not using a shield, Chivalrous chain in the neck slot for cheap if you do assaults at all.

If you're going to use a shield as dd pld, some cheap choices are Iron Ram (allied notes), Tariqah (just... fairly cheap) and Sentinel shield (with Imperial Standing points and high enough rank).

For the earring slot besides Buckler... Suppanomimi/Brutal/Etheral, all Rare/Ex if you have access. You have to work for them, but not really pay anything out.

And in merit, unless you're holding hate with damage, you'd probably be more efficient to just not hold hate, use dd gear, and help contribute to faster kills/chains.

Pretty much my point is, you can't refer to financial issues if you're going to bash dd pld~ except for the case of Haubergeon. And really, if there's going to be one piece you shell out money for, this one is pretty worthwhile.

PLD with hauby +1..
Maybe for WS.. but you won't get more enmity by wearing it full time.
-20 Eva means you get hit more often which leads to more enmity loss.
You also miss out the enmity from Gallant Surcoat, and a small defense bonus.

In all my years of playing FFXI, I have yet to see a PLD effectively evade anything higher than a DC mob. Being able to make contact with the mob with combined acc and atk would more than make up for any enmity loss of being hit like normal.

Also I would think negative evasion would help narrow the window of opportunity forcing shield/parry to proc more, but I could be mistaken. I notice PLDs that build 100% based on damage mitigation miss worse than a blind elvaan drk that melees in str rings, so it's kind of a loop hole of enmity loss by not being able to hit the mob and keeping def/vit whatever or hitting the mob and losing enmity from being hit so often. But that happens anyways.

The -20 Eva means almost nothing. Paladins don't evade attacks, mobs miss. And if you're going /Nin ...

I'm not talking going dd on Gods/Jailers/HNM mobs or any other mob thats above lvl 75-78. If it checks low IT or VT (which... if you're xping/meriting on IT++'s.. just... why?) dd/tank hybrid (dd+shield skills) or in merit full dd is fine.

What does +/- enmity do in idle? Slightly more enmity per hit, often by a relatively insignificant modifier compared to actually landing more hits, doing more damage with said hits, and using far more powerful and frequent weaponskills.

Macro in your enmity gear for JAs/cures/Flash/stuff and you have the best of both worlds.

Yes, you will lose more cumulative enmity per hit (slightly) but exp style battles are largely to do with volatile enmity (battles shouldn't last long enough for cumulative enmity to make a significant difference).

A Paladin's true damage reduction is not their DEF and it is not their VIT. It is their SHIELD. This setup keeps your ultimate defensive tool -- your shield at full power, so your main source of damage mitigation is still going to be working properly.

There is really no reason to turtle in exp, and if the fights are so brutal that you really need to, your party is overcamping and exp will be slow anyway.

Ok so, would you say Peacock Amulet or Shield Torque? And one last thing, you guys are collectively basically saying that VIT is a crappy stat to invest into now? I was always under the impression it was the most important, until recently. DD Tanking is MUCH more fun, I take at most 30 more damage than I normally would per hit, but I still block quite a bit.

Short answer: VIT loses relative value later.

Long answer: Melee damage formula is

(D + fSTR) * Pdif.
At lower levels, enemy (D + fSTR) is small.
You reduce enemy fSTR by adding VIT.
When (D + fSTR) is small, reducing fSTR by 1 is quite a large impact (4VIT~ or so), but when (D + fSTR) is high as in higher levels, reducing fSTR by 1 is much smaller.
If you use random figures, imagine (D + fSTR) = 10. Reducing it by 1 has reduced damage by 10%. Now imagine (D + fSTR) = 50. Reducing it by 1 has reduced damage by 2%. Despite the amount of VIT you can get, at higher levels it's simply inefficient.

DEF works to an extent because it reduces the pdif multiplier which stays "in proportion" if you like (though is still relatively inefficient).

Personally I would use Shield Torque if I'm getting bashed around a lot and Peacock Charm if I am not. Parade Gorget is a solid choice for HP > 85% especially if you need the mp.