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Open Carry of Firearms: Yea or Nay?
 Bahamut.Jetackuu
Serveur: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 9001
By Bahamut.Jetackuu 2011-10-11 11:27:52
I think should be illegal to carry a gun period. The statistics don't lie. Gun deaths per 100,000 population: Homicide | Suicide | Other(inc Accident) USA 3.98 | 5.92 | 0.36 England/Wales 0.15 | 0.2 | 0.03 Keep in mind, these statistics are per 100k, which means 10.26 x 100k deaths total for the USA that are gun related every year. In the US where it's legal for almost anyone to walk around with a gun, and every police officer has one. England only 19k a year. Where it's illegal for anyone to carry a gun except federal agents. Even police officers do not carry any weapons. Like I said statistics don't lie. Less guns, less deaths from guns. idc if somebody dies from a gun or a knife, they're dead either way. You're right, stats don't lie, people do. Your numbers are irrelevant as they don't account for many other factors. Making all guns illegal only leaves criminals with guns, pull your head out of your rear. The US is not the UK, different culture, different laws. The numbers for suicide are irrelevant, as are accidental, stupid people will be stupid. Homicide are irrelevant as well, criminals will be criminals, would you rather somebody rob you with a loaded gun and shoot you dead or at knife point and leave you lying for hours bleeding out. It's not really a choice, what are you going to do next outlaw knives? Also here in the US (and this applies to us exclusively) we have a little thing called the Bill of Rights, and anyone who violates said bill is a traitor to the US. Your missing his point completely Jet. Hes arguing that if the US was more like the UK and had not manufactured and produced so many weapons to begin with then we wouldn't have as high a death toll as we do with guns as the means. So what he is saying is that less guns available altogether = less crime with guns which might be true but is not a possible reality these days. Guns were everywhere in the UK. That was the first place on earth to have them in mass quantity. Hell, England was one of the first countries to have guns made solely for ornate and showmanship purposes. They were also the first (or second to Japan) to engage in sport shooting. A law change made all law abiding citizens turn them in. There was no difference a few years back. been more than a few...
Serveur: Odin
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2027
By Odin.Daemun 2011-10-11 11:29:23
Guns were everywhere in the UK. That was the first place on earth to have them in mass quantity. Hell, England was one of the first countries to have guns made solely for ornate and showmanship purposes. They were also the first (or second to Japan) to engage in sport shooting. A law change made all law abiding citizens turn them in. There was no difference a few years back. been more than a few... I was using the term rather loosely.
Just looked up the year, 1997, and found the reasoning behind it. Terrible occurrence, but wow change the protection rights of multiple countries because of one psycho? Harsh.
Lakshmi.Flavin
Serveur: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 18466
By Lakshmi.Flavin 2011-10-11 11:38:11
I think should be illegal to carry a gun period. The statistics don't lie. Gun deaths per 100,000 population: Homicide | Suicide | Other(inc Accident) USA 3.98 | 5.92 | 0.36 England/Wales 0.15 | 0.2 | 0.03 Keep in mind, these statistics are per 100k, which means 10.26 x 100k deaths total for the USA that are gun related every year. In the US where it's legal for almost anyone to walk around with a gun, and every police officer has one. England only 19k a year. Where it's illegal for anyone to carry a gun except federal agents. Even police officers do not carry any weapons. Like I said statistics don't lie. Less guns, less deaths from guns. idc if somebody dies from a gun or a knife, they're dead either way. You're right, stats don't lie, people do. Your numbers are irrelevant as they don't account for many other factors. Making all guns illegal only leaves criminals with guns, pull your head out of your rear. The US is not the UK, different culture, different laws. The numbers for suicide are irrelevant, as are accidental, stupid people will be stupid. Homicide are irrelevant as well, criminals will be criminals, would you rather somebody rob you with a loaded gun and shoot you dead or at knife point and leave you lying for hours bleeding out. It's not really a choice, what are you going to do next outlaw knives? Also here in the US (and this applies to us exclusively) we have a little thing called the Bill of Rights, and anyone who violates said bill is a traitor to the US. Your missing his point completely Jet. Hes arguing that if the US was more like the UK and had not manufactured and produced so many weapons to begin with then we wouldn't have as high a death toll as we do with guns as the means. So what he is saying is that less guns available altogether = less crime with guns which might be true but is not a possible reality these days. Nowhere does he say anything about production in that statement, but ok... the point still stands, different culture, different laws. If the US populace didn't have so many guns we'd have been destroyed years ago. So what-ifs are kind of pointless. However you're last point is right, not a possible reality. How would we have been destroyed? Just curious.
Lakshmi.Flavin
Serveur: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 18466
By Lakshmi.Flavin 2011-10-11 11:39:12
Also to clarify we're talking about guns that are being manufactured and sold for civilian use and not the military correct?
 Shiva.Kewitt
Serveur: Shiva
Game: FFXI
Posts: 168
By Shiva.Kewitt 2011-10-11 11:50:05
The questions is not open carry of firearms...
The questions is why do you think you need to?
Personally I've shot a gun 2 different times in my life.
I personally have no need to carry one around to feel safe.
I have no plans in stopping a crime currently happening.
I've never been robbed.
I've never been held up.
I've never even seen a crime with a weapon being commented.
All that being said. Why does someone need a gun unless they got a small (fill in the blank) that they are making up for?
Homicide | Suicide | Other(inc Accident)
USA 3.98 | 5.92 | 0.36
England/Wales 0.15 | 0.2 | 0.03
Total homicides all causes.
USA 5.6 - 3.98 = 1.62 Non gun homicides per 100,000
UK 1.43 - 0.15 = 1.28 Non gun homicides per 100,000
It would seem by these numbers, Guns cause deaths.
Serveur: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 10394
By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2011-10-11 11:59:32
So because you've never been robbed, held up or seen a crime with a weapon in progress you think no one needs a firearm for personal protection?
Services like the police are being slashed left and right, crime has spiked in certain areas and depending on where you happen to live you might actually need a firearm to protect yourself from people who think there are no penalties to committing crimes.
Just being the devil's advocate here, I don't personally think an open carry of firearms is going to do much in terms of lowering the crime rates across the country.
Criminals have a healthy access to guns here and if they want to use one, it's going to happen. It's a mild deterrent at best to have open carry.
Bismarck.Dreadnot
Serveur: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 5113
By Bismarck.Dreadnot 2011-10-11 12:05:39
Homicide | Suicide | Other(inc Accident)
USA 3.98 | 5.92 | 0.36
England/Wales 0.15 | 0.2 | 0.03
Total homicides all causes.
USA 5.6 - 3.98 = 1.62 Non gun homicides per 100,000
UK 1.43 - 0.15 = 1.28 Non gun homicides per 100,000
It would seem by these numbers, Guns cause deaths.
Now tally up the drunk driving deaths, the drug overdose deaths, the regular car accident deaths, assault with a melee weapon deaths, and the health problem deaths caused by eating poorly.
Go ahead. I'll wait.
Edit: Add in lung cancer deaths from cigarettes too.
 Carbuncle.Lolserj
Serveur: Carbuncle
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2851
By Carbuncle.Lolserj 2011-10-11 12:17:47
The questions is not open carry of firearms...
The questions is why do you think you need to?
Personally I've shot a gun 2 different times in my life.
I personally have no need to carry one around to feel safe.
I have no plans in stopping a crime currently happening.
I've never been robbed.
I've never been held up.
I've never even seen a crime with a weapon being commented.
All that being said. Why does someone need a gun unless they got a small (fill in the blank) that they are making up for?
Homicide | Suicide | Other(inc Accident)
USA 3.98 | 5.92 | 0.36
England/Wales 0.15 | 0.2 | 0.03
Total homicides all causes.
USA 5.6 - 3.98 = 1.62 Non gun homicides per 100,000
UK 1.43 - 0.15 = 1.28 Non gun homicides per 100,000
It would seem by these numbers, Guns cause deaths.
I think the biggest factor is actually people and not the guns themselves
If the most lethal weapon on the planet was a rock
people would kill each other with it
[+]
Carbuncle.Lolserj
Serveur: Carbuncle
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2851
By Carbuncle.Lolserj 2011-10-11 12:21:44
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »So because you've never been robbed, held up or seen a crime with a weapon in progress you think no one needs a firearm for personal protection?
Services like the police are being slashed left and right, crime has spiked in certain areas and depending on where you happen to live you might actually need a firearm to protect yourself from people who think there are no penalties to committing crimes.
Just being the devil's advocate here, I don't personally think an open carry of firearms is going to do much in terms of lowering the crime rates across the country.
Criminals have a healthy access to guns here and if they want to use one, it's going to happen. It's a mild deterrent at best to have open carry.
i could care less about how guns cause crime or how guns could potentially reduce it
i want it for personal protection
i could care less about people getting murdered, mugged, or robbed
if you want to try to stop that from happening to yourself buy a gun
Serveur: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3351
By Fenrir.Terminus 2011-10-11 12:24:50
I know comparing different things is not really appropriate, but, I just was talking about Westboro Baptist, and had a thought. A lot of people agree that religion has been the driving force of a lot of bad things. Sure, maybe it's just idiots being idiots for the most part in the US, but elsewhere, it's more serious.
Yet, there's no similar discussion about restricting the practice of religion - people recognize that there are differences between the people that simply go to church on Sundays, and the people who want gay people to die because god hates them. (For example.)
I know they are very different things, but, it was kind of entertaining to think about.
Carbuncle.Lolserj
Serveur: Carbuncle
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2851
By Carbuncle.Lolserj 2011-10-11 12:25:35
I know comparing different things is not really appropriate, but, I just was talking about Westboro Baptist, and had a thought. A lot of people agree that religion has been the driving force of a lot of bad things. Sure, maybe it's just idiots being idiots for the most part in the US, but elsewhere, it's more serious.
Yet, there's no similar discussion about restricting the practice of religion - people recognize that there are differences between the people that simply go to church on Sundays, and the people who want gay people to die because god hates them. (For example.)
I know they are very different things, but, it was kind of entertaining to think about.
Solution: Buy guns, shoot religious people.
[+]
 Cerberus.Kvazz
Serveur: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
Posts: 5345
By Cerberus.Kvazz 2011-10-11 12:27:17
Bismarck.Dreadnot said: »
Homicide | Suicide | Other(inc Accident)
USA 3.98 | 5.92 | 0.36
England/Wales 0.15 | 0.2 | 0.03
Total homicides all causes.
USA 5.6 - 3.98 = 1.62 Non gun homicides per 100,000
UK 1.43 - 0.15 = 1.28 Non gun homicides per 100,000
It would seem by these numbers, Guns cause deaths.
Now tally up the drunk driving deaths, the drug overdose deaths, the regular car accident deaths, assault with a melee weapon deaths, and the health problem deaths caused by eating poorly.
Go ahead. I'll wait.
Edit: Add in lung cancer deaths from cigarettes too.
Why would that make any difference?
The thing here is, GUNS cause deaths, that probably would'nt have happened otherwise.
So, if you remove most guns, there will be less deaths regarding guns overall.
From what I remember, on avarage there's about 40 murders a year in Norway, where not even the police carry guns.
(Inb4 Anders Breivik could've been stopped blabla)
Reacting to threats with voliolent means = more un-needed deaths\accidents.
Carbuncle.Lolserj
Serveur: Carbuncle
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2851
By Carbuncle.Lolserj 2011-10-11 12:28:27
Bismarck.Dreadnot said: »
Homicide | Suicide | Other(inc Accident)
USA 3.98 | 5.92 | 0.36
England/Wales 0.15 | 0.2 | 0.03
Total homicides all causes.
USA 5.6 - 3.98 = 1.62 Non gun homicides per 100,000
UK 1.43 - 0.15 = 1.28 Non gun homicides per 100,000
It would seem by these numbers, Guns cause deaths.
Now tally up the drunk driving deaths, the drug overdose deaths, the regular car accident deaths, assault with a melee weapon deaths, and the health problem deaths caused by eating poorly.
Go ahead. I'll wait.
Edit: Add in lung cancer deaths from cigarettes too.
Why would that make any difference?
The thing here is, GUNS cause deaths, that probably would'nt have happened otherwise.
So, if you remove most guns, there will be less deaths regarding guns overall.
From what I remember, on avarage there's about 40 murders a year in Norway, where not even the police carry guns.
(Inb4 Anders Breivik could've been stopped blabla)
Reacting to threats with voliolent means = more un-needed deaths\accidents.
I'd rather be able to react with violence than not be able to react at all
[+]
Serveur: Odin
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2027
By Odin.Daemun 2011-10-11 12:29:31
Carbuncle.Lolserj said: »I know comparing different things is not really appropriate, but, I just was talking about Westboro Baptist, and had a thought. A lot of people agree that religion has been the driving force of a lot of bad things. Sure, maybe it's just idiots being idiots for the most part in the US, but elsewhere, it's more serious.
Yet, there's no similar discussion about restricting the practice of religion - people recognize that there are differences between the people that simply go to church on Sundays, and the people who want gay people to die because god hates them. (For example.)
I know they are very different things, but, it was kind of entertaining to think about.
Solution: Buy guns, shoot religious people. I shoot first, and I don't miss
Serveur: Odin
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2027
By Odin.Daemun 2011-10-11 12:30:35
Bismarck.Dreadnot said: »
Homicide | Suicide | Other(inc Accident)
USA 3.98 | 5.92 | 0.36
England/Wales 0.15 | 0.2 | 0.03
Total homicides all causes.
USA 5.6 - 3.98 = 1.62 Non gun homicides per 100,000
UK 1.43 - 0.15 = 1.28 Non gun homicides per 100,000
It would seem by these numbers, Guns cause deaths.
Now tally up the drunk driving deaths, the drug overdose deaths, the regular car accident deaths, assault with a melee weapon deaths, and the health problem deaths caused by eating poorly.
Go ahead. I'll wait.
Edit: Add in lung cancer deaths from cigarettes too.
Why would that make any difference?
The thing here is, GUNS cause deaths, that probably would'nt have happened otherwise.
So, if you remove most guns, there will be less deaths regarding guns overall.
From what I remember, on avarage there's about 40 murders a year in Norway, where not even the police carry guns.
(Inb4 Anders Breivik could've been stopped blabla)
Reacting to threats with voliolent means = more un-needed deaths\accidents. The thing is cars cause deaths. They should be banned because you are 10x more likely to die from a car accident than pretty much any other non disease related thing on earth. We should eliminate them all, and immediately.
Carbuncle.Lolserj
Serveur: Carbuncle
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2851
By Carbuncle.Lolserj 2011-10-11 12:32:04
Guns suck, no say so on the matter- I don't need one cuz I feel safe already.
Your nervous system effects your heart too, just fyi.
I'll shoot my heart before it has a chance to kill me
[+]
Shiva.Kewitt
Serveur: Shiva
Game: FFXI
Posts: 168
By Shiva.Kewitt 2011-10-11 12:32:55
Carbuncle.Lolserj said: »The questions is not open carry of firearms...
The questions is why do you think you need to?
Personally I've shot a gun 2 different times in my life.
I personally have no need to carry one around to feel safe.
I have no plans in stopping a crime currently happening.
I've never been robbed.
I've never been held up.
I've never even seen a crime with a weapon being commented.
All that being said. Why does someone need a gun unless they got a small (fill in the blank) that they are making up for?
Homicide | Suicide | Other(inc Accident)
USA 3.98 | 5.92 | 0.36
England/Wales 0.15 | 0.2 | 0.03
Total homicides all causes.
USA 5.6 - 3.98 = 1.62 Non gun homicides per 100,000
UK 1.43 - 0.15 = 1.28 Non gun homicides per 100,000
It would seem by these numbers, Guns cause deaths.
I think the biggest factor is actually people and not the guns themselves
If the most lethal weapon on the planet was a rock
people would kill each other with it
Clearly you didn't look at the number.
seeing how the non gun homicides are kind of close in numbers. It means people are killed more offent all around in the USA then in the UK. Both civil places to live.
See how easy it is to get a gun in the USA, How often do you hear about a mass shotting.
UK Mass shooting
Hungerford: 19 August 1987 Michael Ryan shot and killed 16 people
Dunblane: 13 March 1996 Thomas Hamilton killed 16 children and their teacher
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_shooting
Look at the list of just US, and that isn't work places that's just schools, The mass shooting in the UK are all of them over the last 30 years.
Ragnarok.Nausi
Serveur: Ragnarok
Game: FFXI
Posts: 6709
By Ragnarok.Nausi 2011-10-11 12:34:06
The bad guys will ALWAYS have guns.
I do believe this has been studied, and the results are that pretty much every place that adopts a less restrictive attitude towards open carry laws generally enjoys less crime and safer streets.
The reason being of course that criminals are LESS likely to commit crimes if normal people are MORE likely to carry firearms.
 Siren.Mosin
Serveur: Siren
Game: FFXI
By Siren.Mosin 2011-10-11 12:39:03
It's all fun & games until china starts taking ***over. we're already fat & lazy, no guns would just make it all the more easy for them to roll us like a burrito.
(america)
Shiva.Kewitt
Serveur: Shiva
Game: FFXI
Posts: 168
By Shiva.Kewitt 2011-10-11 12:42:35
The bad guys will ALWAYS have guns. I do believe this has been studied, and the results are that pretty much every place that adopts a less restrictive attitude towards open carry laws generally enjoys less crime and safer streets. The reason being of course that criminals are LESS likely to commit crimes if normal people are MORE likely to carry firearms.
Yes but this is offset buy random person who wouldn't normally have a gun now having one and in a random fit of road rage they kill someone.
I said road rage, But really any randome fit of anger would do.
Gilgamesh.Kovalev
Serveur: Gilgamesh
Game: FFXI
Posts: 145
By Gilgamesh.Kovalev 2011-10-11 12:43:47
Lakshmi.Flavin
Serveur: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 18466
By Lakshmi.Flavin 2011-10-11 12:44:34
Carbuncle.Lolserj said: »I know comparing different things is not really appropriate, but, I just was talking about Westboro Baptist, and had a thought. A lot of people agree that religion has been the driving force of a lot of bad things. Sure, maybe it's just idiots being idiots for the most part in the US, but elsewhere, it's more serious. Yet, there's no similar discussion about restricting the practice of religion - people recognize that there are differences between the people that simply go to church on Sundays, and the people who want gay people to die because god hates them. (For example.) I know they are very different things, but, it was kind of entertaining to think about. Solution: Buy guns, shoot religious people. I shoot first, and I don't miss Saying stuff like this really just makes an argument against yourself.
Carbuncle.Lolserj
Serveur: Carbuncle
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2851
By Carbuncle.Lolserj 2011-10-11 12:45:29
Carbuncle.Lolserj said: »The questions is not open carry of firearms...
The questions is why do you think you need to?
Personally I've shot a gun 2 different times in my life.
I personally have no need to carry one around to feel safe.
I have no plans in stopping a crime currently happening.
I've never been robbed.
I've never been held up.
I've never even seen a crime with a weapon being commented.
All that being said. Why does someone need a gun unless they got a small (fill in the blank) that they are making up for?
Homicide | Suicide | Other(inc Accident)
USA 3.98 | 5.92 | 0.36
England/Wales 0.15 | 0.2 | 0.03
Total homicides all causes.
USA 5.6 - 3.98 = 1.62 Non gun homicides per 100,000
UK 1.43 - 0.15 = 1.28 Non gun homicides per 100,000
It would seem by these numbers, Guns cause deaths.
I think the biggest factor is actually people and not the guns themselves
If the most lethal weapon on the planet was a rock
people would kill each other with it
Clearly you didn't look at the number.
seeing how the non gun homicides are kind of close in numbers. It means people are killed more offent all around in the USA then in the UK. Both civil places to live.
See how easy it is to get a gun in the USA, How often do you hear about a mass shotting.
UK Mass shooting
Hungerford: 19 August 1987 Michael Ryan shot and killed 16 people
Dunblane: 13 March 1996 Thomas Hamilton killed 16 children and their teacher
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_shooting
Look at the list of just US, and that isn't work places that's just schools, The mass shooting in the UK are all of them over the last 30 years.
a country with more guns has more gun related deaths
wow you have really opened my eyes and changed my opinion by stating obvious facts
Do you think that open carry of firearms would be a good or bad thing?
Would armed citizens have been able to reduce the death toll at Columbine? The Killeen Texas Luby's cafeteria massacre? The Virginia Tech shooting? Would armed citizens make crooks think twice about mugging someone?
Would a plethora of firearms result in more road rage shootings? Impulse shootings when tempers flair? Innocent bystanders caught in crossfires? "Friendly Fire" incidents as one armed citizen mistakes the guy shooting the bad guy FOR the bad guy?
Not putting out my thoughts, just wanted to see what y'all would think on about a breakroom discussion we had at work today.
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