Vermeil Bhuj Vs Sumeru Steel Cyclone + 10%

DRK/NIN tank like a boss.

As far as I know, no conclusive tests have been done for crit WSs. I've heard anywhere from 5%-20% at 100%.

The only time I've found SC particularly useful was in extremely low buff situations on things such as sky gods.

I used it quite a lot before I had a decent RR build (please don't laugh at it now ><)

I think it was CDF/Robonosto that posted the info, let me check his blog...

Nope, it's actually higher than that. 15-20% was his estimation from pooled data.

Gives you over a 50% chance of at least one crit per WS even at 15% base. ~66% at 20%.

Heh, well I guess the general EU population hasn't moved on to you guys either, becasue of the three endgame LS's I've been in the past couple years, all have used DD/THF (Pretty much SAM/THF onry.. apart from RNGs for shadowbind <.M) and PLD/NIN or NIN/WAR tanks. Also, we generally have only 1 bard for each event... Sometimes a Cor too... But pretty much tank pt onry, meaning the only buffs us DD's get is pro/shell/haste >_>

I'll be the first to admit the LS's I've been in are far from superior, however trying to find any good LS that fits EU time zones has been difficult for me <_< But yeah, I guess my point is (and I know you've mentioned the 'move on') not everyone has backline support and apoc drk/nin tanks. You work with what you've got and try to make sure it gets killed before you in the process. DD/THF might not be the 'best' method, but it 'does' still work, and throwing out a Sekkonki rana - SA gekko @ start of fight can help build up some starting hate for the other DDs to let rip or whatever. Just my two cents.

Also I won't pretend to know about WAR dps, as my war is only 51 and I don't give a rats *** about it... But from what I've seen by a couple of my war friends, KJ kicks ***, especially when you can close light with it too.

But only having 1/2-3/5 WSs actually landing a SINGLE crit in a 3-hit WS isn't going to beat a WS with large WSC mods and a innate attack bonus on high defense targets when you're barely buffed.

I don't care what buffs "should" be on. The fact is, a majority of this games DDs in endgame have 0-1 Bards with them, whether it's because the LS doesn't have any or enough to hand out after the tank party is taken care of. Most likely, they don't have a COR either, because it's busy giving the mage party refresh/MAB, or doesn't exist.

super you be amazed I dont even get pro/shell/haste when I was damage dealing.... unless zerging something and even then I had to remind mages to haste the party/alliance

Ok this thread is boring me, I assumed someone would have come in and saved the day with some maths a while ago, but it seems to have fallen on me to do it.

OK here we go:

Mob
Level: 85
DEF: 555 ( =500 with Dia II… I don’t think that’s too much to ask)
VIT: 75

Player
Level: 80
Food: Pizza (most people are using)
STR: 110 (in WS build)
VIT: 75 (in WS build)
Attack: 530 (Normal WS build + food)

Weapon 1 (Vermeil Bhuj)
D: 104
STR: 8

Weapon 2 (Umeru steel cyclone + 10%)
D: 98
Steel cyclone +10%

fSTR, WSC and WDMG
Weapon 1 (Vermeil Bhuj)
fSTR = (110+8-75+4)/4 = 11
WSC = (110+8)*0.84 = 34
WDMG = 11+34+104 = 149

Weapon 2 (Umeru steel cyclone + 10%)
fSTR = (110-75+4)/4 = 9
WSC = 110*0.84 + 75*0.84 = 77
WDMG = 11+77+98 = 184

Ratio, cRatio and pDif
Ratio = 530/500 = 1.06

Weapon 1 (Vermeil Bhuj)
Cratio = 1.06-((85-80)*0.05) = 0.81
Max pDif = 1
Min pDif = 0.47
Average pDIF = 0.74

Weapon 2 (Umeru steel cyclone + 10%)
Cratio = (1.06-((85-80)*0.05))*1.66 = 1.35
Max pDif = 1.62
Min pDif = 1
Average pDIF = 1.31

WS Damage
Weapon 1 (Vermeil Bhuj)
Assuming 1 crit and zero misses:
(149*2*0.74)+(149*(0.74+1)) = 478

Assuming 1 crit and 1 miss
(149*0.74)+(149*(0.74+1)) = 369

Assuming 0 crits and 0 misses
(149*3*0.74) = 329

Weapon 2 (Umeru steel cyclone + 10%)
184*1.5*1.31 = 361
Then add the 10%
361 * 1.1 = 397

Conclusion
The 10% boost to steel cyclone is strong and it makes quite a difference; enough to turn it from an easy win for raging rush into a little more complex affair.

I have ignored accuracy for this comparison and ignored the fact that any half decent WAR would have a different set for RR and SC and just looked at the raw damage figures.

Basically you need 1 crit in order to easily beat SC. As people mentioned earlier in the thread; 15-20% chance from WS you will crit on 50-66% at floor crit rate. Interestingly, if you take a weighted average of the raging rush numbers you get 390-410, depending on the weightings you use (read: accuracy) which is basically the same as the SC figure.

So it looks like, over time, the two weaponskills will be pretty well matched (on this particular hypothetical mob)

I will admit, it is a lot closer than I would have thought. As you can tell from my posts, I was expecting a pretty easy win for RR.

What changes this balance?
Mob VIT will affect both WS in the same way (reduce fSTR)
Mob Defence, there is 3 cases to this:
cRatio is capped (or near) with both WS = low end mobs, RR wins by miles
cRatio is only capped with SC = RR will still look good but is SC closes the gap quickly
cRatio isn’t capped on either WS = SC (with the 10%) will match/beat RR. SC (without the 10%) will match/lose to RR

Overlooked: It's still A LOT EASIER to 6hit vermeil than the non stp Sumeru.