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Religion strikes again
 Caitsith.Silvaria
Serveur: Caitsith
Game: FFXI
Posts: 269
By Caitsith.Silvaria 2010-06-18 03:46:27
Asura.Leonlionheart said: Caitsith.Silvaria said: Asura.Leonlionheart said: Then you're not an atheist are you? You believe that a fetus is a form of human life and has its rights. Thats a belief, and to some extremists a complete belief system.
No one is truly believes nothing. Generally speaking atheists treat a human fetus as not human at all but simply a part of the female body, not its own living entity. Though this is just a stereotype since "Atheism" has no system of beliefs.
The fact of the matter is that everyone makes mistakes, some get more press than others because said mistake contradicts a set of rules that a certain set of people try to follow.
Hm, wow, let me see if I understand this...because atheists don't believe in a -god-, you think they shouldn't technically believe in anything?
Perhaps you do not understand the meaning of the word "atheist".
A "theist" is one who believes in a god.
An "a-theist" is one who -lacks- belief in a god.
This has absolutely, positively NOTHING to do with one's beliefs in the life or non-life of an unborn fetus. One can believe in a NUMBER of things and still be an "a-theist" because the word ONLY refers to theism, i.e., belief in a deity or deities. It doesn't refer to anything else, at all.
Not really pertaining to the argument... but still, I'ma go there. "god" from dictionary .com (7) ( lowercase ) any deified person or object.
Everyone has a god, even if you don't want to accept it. If you still play FFXI, it is probably that.
Pertaining to the argument, I followed up to say that the people who call themselves atheists are often times the ones who believe in pro-choice. Thats the point, everything else was beating around the bush, was without citation, and may have been wrong. I think Jaerik's link proves this, though I could have read it wrong.
Don't get in a tizzy because I assumed you were pro-choice if you are atheist. Apparently some of you assume I'm HELP I AM TRAPPED IN 2006 PLEASE SEND A TIME MACHINE if I'm a self proclaimed Christian.
I'm not arguing against the obvious tendency for atheists to be pro-choice, nor am I in a "tizzy". I'm saying that your original statement, which was that believing a fetus has rights excludes a person from being an atheist, is erroneous for exactly the reasons I described: "Atheism" refers to lack of belief in a supreme being. Believing in the right to abortion has nothing whatsoever to do with belief in a supreme being.
I truly have no idea how to make it more clear than that.
And it's pretty arrogant to say, "Everyone has a god even if they don't want to accept it". How would you like it if you were a Christian, and I told you, "You don't -really- believe there is a god, you just -want- to believe there is one, and that is a fact even if you don't want to accept it." I imagine you'd not be too happy.
I'll never understand the propensity some people have for telling other people what they do or don't believe in, LOL...and calling a video game a god is just plain silly. If you can't understand the difference between enjoying a man-made video game and worshiping a omniscient being that allegedly created Life, the Universe, and Everything, then frankly, we have nothing more to discuss. 8)
 Phoenix.Darki
Serveur: Phoenix
Game: FFXI
Posts: 9949
By Phoenix.Darki 2010-06-18 03:47:40
Sylph.Anjali said: Phoenix.Darki said: Sylph.Anjali said: Phoenix.Darki said: Sylph.Anjali said: Phoenix.Darki said: Sylph.Anjali said: These seem like very simplistic & bias views of atheism.
that too that too.
I don't remember typing anything about atheism.
I meant the other people who have. Also having simplistic views on atheism.
Do two wrongs make a right? That seems to be what you are telling me then.
I don't recall doing anything wrong with pointing out my views, even if they are in a simplistic way, which aren't far from the truth.
I'm not killing anyone by defying god! ...or am I?
I don't know. I just saw this topic on the front page and it seems like the people in it are implying all religious people are fanatics who will do anything bad because they can use God as an excuse.
I thought it was a basic aim of all humans to be a better person. You just told me that it is basically OK for you to say any nonsense about religion because people against atheism do the same. An eye for an eye? I don't really believe in living that way.
Not all people, but most of it, I guess overall, we should all Agree that it doesn't matter what you believe, people can be bad or good? But no one wants to get to that agreement and have some /peace because others statement arise, etc etc. It's a small world with too many people out there!
and I'm not saying nonsence, unless you think that my opinion is nonsence about the whole subject, can't do anything about it right there :( I still think the same way, it's what the people involved in religion always seem to be... to me that is, that's how they've acted, can't say otherwise no one has prooved me something else yet!
Shiva.Weewoo
Serveur: Shiva
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3323
By Shiva.Weewoo 2010-06-18 03:50:26
42
/thread
Phoenix.Darki
Serveur: Phoenix
Game: FFXI
Posts: 9949
By Phoenix.Darki 2010-06-18 03:51:20
GTFO. I haven't read through the whole pages to see how it turned into this argument TBH. but then again, this is FFXIAH, in here you can turn dust into gold!
ITS POSSIBLE! pray a little.
Sylph.Kimble
Serveur: Sylph
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2912
By Sylph.Kimble 2010-06-18 03:52:08
I had a roommate that said to us one day that he felt bad knowing when we all day, he will be in heaven and we wont be because we don't believe and god and accept jesus as our lord and savior.
I then asked him so you are telling, someone who drinks, smokes, does drugs, beats women, etc will go to heaven as long as they believe in god, but a man who takes care of his family, does community work, has never done drugs, etc, will not go to heaven because he didnt say he accepts jesus as our savior?
And he said yes. Guess it explains why he thought it was ok to get wasted every night.
Phoenix.Darki
Serveur: Phoenix
Game: FFXI
Posts: 9949
By Phoenix.Darki 2010-06-18 03:54:55
Sylph.Kimble said: I had a roommate that said to us one day that he felt bad knowing when we all day, he will be in heaven and we wont be because we don't believe and god and accept jesus as our lord and savior.
I then asked him so you are telling, someone who drinks, smokes, does drugs, beats women, etc will go to heaven as long as they believe in god, but a man who takes care of his family, does community work, has never done drugs, etc, will not go to heaven because he didnt say he accepts jesus as our savior?
And he said yes. Guess it explains why he thought it was ok to get wasted every night.
and you actually expected a logical answer from a person that gets wasted/drunk and acts that way? He deserved to get punched in the face
then you should've said
'God told me to! so you get some logic on your *** brain'
Sylph.Kimble
Serveur: Sylph
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2912
By Sylph.Kimble 2010-06-18 03:56:28
Phoenix.Darki said: Sylph.Kimble said: I had a roommate that said to us one day that he felt bad knowing when we all day, he will be in heaven and we wont be because we don't believe and god and accept jesus as our lord and savior.
I then asked him so you are telling, someone who drinks, smokes, does drugs, beats women, etc will go to heaven as long as they believe in god, but a man who takes care of his family, does community work, has never done drugs, etc, will not go to heaven because he didnt say he accepts jesus as our savior?
And he said yes. Guess it explains why he thought it was ok to get wasted every night.
and you actually expected a logical answer from a person that gets wasted/drunk and acts that way? He deserved to get punched in the face
then you should've said
'God told me to! so you get some logic on your *** brain'
Having debates with him was great because he seemed to lack all sense of logic, lol.
Serveur: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 525
By Asura.Leonlionheart 2010-06-18 03:56:32
No one here seems to understand true Christianity. It's not necessarily a belief system. It's a relationship with the living God, Jesus Christ. It's not a insurance policy. It's not an excuse to sin because forgiveness is given freely. True Christianity is love and willingness to sacrifice out of love for Jesus, and fellow mankind. A willingness to sacrifice your fleshly desires, and thusly turn away from sin. Most self proclaimed "Christians" don't live like that; let alone realize it. For most people, it's a handed down religion thats been breastfed to them since birth, making it an education instead of a relationship based on love.
Phoenix.Darki
Serveur: Phoenix
Game: FFXI
Posts: 9949
By Phoenix.Darki 2010-06-18 03:57:59
Sylph.Anjali said:
Once again this is a very simplistic view. Please don't get angry or offended, but from what I can gather from you and probably others in this topic, I should believe that every new person I meet is a homicidal maniac based on my past experiences of humans. People in this topic on either side of the argument are just generalising, so the same can be done with the basic core which is humanity.
Some of us don't like to be so pessimistic all the time, and not everyone is the same. I'm not really sure why I even posted in this topic. Generalising whole subsets of the human race will never work.
I guess you are generalizing too. hey its okay, I guess it's natural!
Shiva.Weewoo
Serveur: Shiva
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3323
By Shiva.Weewoo 2010-06-18 03:58:31
Asura.Leonlionheart said: No one here seems to understand true Christianity. It's not necessarily a belief system. It's a relationship with the living God, Jesus Christ. It's not a insurance policy. It's not an excuse to sin because forgiveness is given freely. True Christianity is love and willingness to sacrifice out of love for Jesus, and fellow mankind. A willingness to sacrifice your fleshly desires, and thusly turn away from sin. Most self proclaimed "Christians" don't live like that; let alone realize it. For most people, it's a handed down religion thats been breastfed to them since birth, making it an education instead of a relationship based on love.
You have to admit, misinterpretation and twisting dogma around one's selfishness tends to be a common trait when the opportunity presents itself. Not to undermine those who practice their faith on an individual level for self-empowerment, but ya know, there's no news like bad news =/
Sylph.Kimble
Serveur: Sylph
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2912
By Sylph.Kimble 2010-06-18 03:59:58
Shiva.Weewoo said: Asura.Leonlionheart said: No one here seems to understand true Christianity. It's not necessarily a belief system. It's a relationship with the living God, Jesus Christ. It's not a insurance policy. It's not an excuse to sin because forgiveness is given freely. True Christianity is love and willingness to sacrifice out of love for Jesus, and fellow mankind. A willingness to sacrifice your fleshly desires, and thusly turn away from sin. Most self proclaimed "Christians" don't live like that; let alone realize it. For most people, it's a handed down religion thats been breastfed to them since birth, making it an education instead of a relationship based on love.
You have to admit, misinterpretation and twisting dogma around one's selfishness tends to be a common trait when the opportunity presents itself. Not to undermine those who practice their faith on an individual level for self-empowerment, but ya know, there's no news like bad news =/
Dogma was a great movie. :P
Phoenix.Darki
Serveur: Phoenix
Game: FFXI
Posts: 9949
By Phoenix.Darki 2010-06-18 04:01:51
Sylph.Anjali said: Phoenix.Darki said: Sylph.Kimble said: I had a roommate that said to us one day that he felt bad knowing when we all day, he will be in heaven and we wont be because we don't believe and god and accept jesus as our lord and savior.
I then asked him so you are telling, someone who drinks, smokes, does drugs, beats women, etc will go to heaven as long as they believe in god, but a man who takes care of his family, does community work, has never done drugs, etc, will not go to heaven because he didnt say he accepts jesus as our savior?
And he said yes. Guess it explains why he thought it was ok to get wasted every night.
and you actually expected a logical answer from a person that gets wasted/drunk and acts that way? He deserved to get punched in the face
then you should've said
'God told me to! so you get some logic on your *** brain'
That would have nothing to do with the fact he is religious, he is just in a bad state at that time. You seem to be doing exactly what you claim religious people do, giving them an excuse for being bad. "I can do anything cause I believe in God" "You act bad because you are religious".
No, the person acts bad for whatever reason they can find, religion just happened to be the one they decided on.
uh ok... that has nothing to do with what I said to kimble in the first place.
he is in a bad state, I never mentioned he excused himself with God. I only said he thought he was better in someway because he accepted god as his saviour and he was going to heaven simply regardless of his bad behaviour on earth, and he needed some *** logic on his brain, had nothing to do with anything you just said o.O...
Sylph.Kimble
Serveur: Sylph
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2912
By Sylph.Kimble 2010-06-18 04:02:26
Can you please stop spamming. In case you havent noticed, this is the Politics and Religion forums so I don't see why its bad to discuss Religion here.
Shiva.Weewoo
Serveur: Shiva
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3323
By Shiva.Weewoo 2010-06-18 04:02:29
Sylph.Anjali said: That would have nothing to do with the fact he is religious, he is just in a bad state at that time. You seem to be doing exactly what you claim religious people do, giving them an excuse for being bad. "I can do anything cause I believe in God" "You act bad because you are religious".
No, the person acts bad for whatever reason they can find, religion just happened to be the one they decided on.
While it's true, people would use virtually any excuse to justify their means for committing something that would generally be immoral, unacceptable or otherwise illegal. However, religion is a common weapon of choice for self-justification as it has widespread influence over millions and has a generally acceptable view on being grounds for many kinds of decision making, especially in the legislative field. This is why it worries me over someone just saying they did something awful "just cause".
Phoenix.Darki
Serveur: Phoenix
Game: FFXI
Posts: 9949
By Phoenix.Darki 2010-06-18 04:03:20
Sylph.Anjali said: Phoenix.Darki said: Sylph.Anjali said:
Once again this is a very simplistic view. Please don't get angry or offended, but from what I can gather from you and probably others in this topic, I should believe that every new person I meet is a homicidal maniac based on my past experiences of humans. People in this topic on either side of the argument are just generalising, so the same can be done with the basic core which is humanity.
Some of us don't like to be so pessimistic all the time, and not everyone is the same. I'm not really sure why I even posted in this topic. Generalising whole subsets of the human race will never work.
I guess you are generalizing too. hey its okay, I guess it's natural!
You aren't making much sense. You said you have your views because that is your experience from religious people you have met. I took that and showed how it is bad logic. Not sure how else to explain it to you.
Your the one not finding sence on my reply's and just answering whatever you think I just told you O.O... Look at how you completly misunderstood what I just told to Kimble. Don't get mad or anything, But i don't plan on replying again if you keep twisting things up and don't read correctly.
 Carbuncle.Sevourn
Serveur: Carbuncle
Game: FFXI
Posts: 9481
By Carbuncle.Sevourn 2010-06-18 04:03:37
Shiva.Weewoo said: Carbuncle.Sevourn said: Lakshmi.Jaerik said: For example, the Catholic Church triumphantly announced the other day that the incidence rate of pedophilia by clergy "is no higher than that of the general population."
Okay, great, but isn't that damning with faint praise? What's the point of looking to the church as a moral compass if it evidently doesn't matter either way?
while it is faint praise indeed, it does address a common misconception about the catholic church
i'm fairly sure that if you asked your average american about the pedophilia rate in the catholic church, he would say it was much higher than the norm, which is simply not the case.
if you reported every single... say rape by methodists... that ever occurred, i don't think it would be long before methodists had a terrible reputation, even though they weren't raping any more or any less than the general population.
The thing is, the more you specify or specific you get with social groups, the more narrow the margin is.
While the rate of pedophilia may be equal or less than the general population among the Catholic Church, you have to ask yourself, is that saying much with how many people follow the church vs the world's population?
the clergy specifically, not catholics in general. that's a very small, specialized, segment in comparison to the world's population
Shiva.Weewoo
Serveur: Shiva
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3323
By Shiva.Weewoo 2010-06-18 04:03:55
Bart, seriously, lay off the Rum. I put a lil too much skyy in my sobe too but sheesh man...
Carbuncle.Sevourn
Serveur: Carbuncle
Game: FFXI
Posts: 9481
By Carbuncle.Sevourn 2010-06-18 04:05:35
Can we talk about alvin greene? that ***was crazy.
Sylph.Kimble
Serveur: Sylph
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2912
By Sylph.Kimble 2010-06-18 04:05:41
Asura.Bartimaeus said: Shiva.Weewoo said: Bart, seriously, lay off the Rum. I put a lil too much skyy in my sobe too but sheesh man...
I'm actually sober and getting annoyed that people couldn't even be bothered to READ the *** news story. lol
So, lets discuss why soccer sucks?
Shiva.Weewoo
Serveur: Shiva
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3323
By Shiva.Weewoo 2010-06-18 04:05:42
I think it's still relevant. Granted this has deviated away from story intended to be discussed by the OP, it has since been turned into a discussion of religion being fine while people are crazy vs crazy people + religion = scary!
Phoenix.Darki
Serveur: Phoenix
Game: FFXI
Posts: 9949
By Phoenix.Darki 2010-06-18 04:06:08
Shiva.Weewoo said: Sylph.Anjali said: That would have nothing to do with the fact he is religious, he is just in a bad state at that time. You seem to be doing exactly what you claim religious people do, giving them an excuse for being bad. "I can do anything cause I believe in God" "You act bad because you are religious".
No, the person acts bad for whatever reason they can find, religion just happened to be the one they decided on.
While it's true, people would use virtually any excuse to justify their means for committing something that would generally be immoral, unacceptable or otherwise illegal. However, religion is a common weapon of choice for self-justification as it has widespread influence over millions and has a generally acceptable view on being grounds for many kinds of decision making, especially in the legislative field. This is why it worries me over someone just saying they did something awful "just cause".
didn't I just say that earlier in simpler words with simpler examples.... but the dude made it look like my opinion was simplistic, so I guess yours is aswell for him.
http://soccernet.espn.go.com/world-cup/story/_/id/5297052/ce/us/south-african-man-killed-wife-kids-changing-tv-germany-australia-game?cc=5901&ver=usQuote: JOHANNESBURG -- Police say a South African man who wanted to watch a World Cup match instead of a religious program was beaten to death by his family in the northeastern part of the country.
David Makoeya, a 61-year-old man from the small village of Makweya, Limpopo province, fought with his wife and two children for the remote control on Sunday because he wanted to watch Germany play Australia in the World Cup. The others, however, wanted to watch a gospel show.
"He said, 'No, I want to watch soccer,'" police spokesman Mothemane Malefo said Thursday. "That is when the argument came about.
"In that argument, they started assaulting him."
Malefo said Makoeya got up to change the channel by hand after being refused the remote control and was attacked by his 68-year-old wife Francina and two children, 36-year-old son Collin and 23-year-old daughter Lebogang.
Malefo said he was not sure what the family used to kill Makoeya.
"It appears they banged his head against the wall," Malefo said. "They phoned the police only after he was badly injured, but by the time the police arrived the man was already dead."
All three were arrested Sunday night, but Lebogang was released on $200 bail Tuesday, Malefo said. The other two are still being held in custody.
Malefo said the mother and son will reappear in the local Seshego Magistrates Court on July 27.
"He was always a happy man, never violent," Makoeya's nieces, Miriam and Anna, told the Daily Sun newspaper. "On Saturday, we saw him the last time at a funeral."
The World Cup, being played in Africa for the first time, started Friday and runs through July 11.
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