Fenrir.Nightfyre said:
EDIT: Nevermind, I'm not getting dragged into your *** again.
Good move on your part, because you'll lose the arguement.
Haste Is NOT Exponential...
Haste is NOT exponential...
Good move on your part, because you'll lose the arguement.
Bismarck.Kuroganashi said:
Haste is awesome !
all ya need to know :D
KSS ( Keep Simple and Stupid ) for the ppl that got no math background
now if u do got some
you would see that haste is a lot better than w/e u can come up with :P
too lazy atm , just got off Calculus 3 college class @....@
/sigh >< tired too , cya guys
all ya need to know :D
KSS ( Keep Simple and Stupid ) for the ppl that got no math background
now if u do got some
you would see that haste is a lot better than w/e u can come up with :P
too lazy atm , just got off Calculus 3 college class @....@
/sigh >< tired too , cya guys
lol'd, this guy is so awesome.
Bahamut.Raenryong said:
-_-...
People do not ask "how many more times does Double Attack make me hit"? People ask "how much more damage does Double Attack make me do?" - why can damage not be an output of a function primarily designed with the output being damage?
There is no point whatsoever in useless comparisons!
Neither Haste nor Double Attack have constant returns in a way that anyone cares about. What people want to know is how it changes their damage, not how it changes how many times they hit - this is where the horrible misconception comes into play that haste only helps if you're full time engaged to something for x amount of time!
People do not ask "how many more times does Double Attack make me hit"? People ask "how much more damage does Double Attack make me do?" - why can damage not be an output of a function primarily designed with the output being damage?
There is no point whatsoever in useless comparisons!
Neither Haste nor Double Attack have constant returns in a way that anyone cares about. What people want to know is how it changes their damage, not how it changes how many times they hit - this is where the horrible misconception comes into play that haste only helps if you're full time engaged to something for x amount of time!
This is actually a much better point and is really where all of this confusion stems from in the first place.
Haven't read the past few pages, but to sum it up.
Have 10%, add 1% haste = X increase in damage
Have 20%, add 1% haste = X+Y increase in damage, Y > 0
Have 10%, add 1% haste = X increase in damage
Have 20%, add 1% haste = X+Y increase in damage, Y > 0
have u guys stopped bickering yet? i mean im not in college but this ***isnt that hard to figure out.... but idk maybe u guys are fighting over 2 different things. and dasvas chart was correct.
Na, some guy keeps pushing everyones buttons.
Haste vs delay is an even straight line of increase.
Haste vs # of attacks is exp. (meaning 100% = instantly dead mob, or 99% means 100x faster melee)
Last couple pages are:
haste vs double att. But some ppl playing dumb as to not understand this one now.
100% Haste = instankill (or should cause you would hit an infinite amount of times)
100% double attack = 2x as much attacks, which is = 50% haste.
There's your update to ppl wondering about the epic million pages this is taking to explain.
Haste vs delay is an even straight line of increase.
Haste vs # of attacks is exp. (meaning 100% = instantly dead mob, or 99% means 100x faster melee)
Last couple pages are:
haste vs double att. But some ppl playing dumb as to not understand this one now.
100% Haste = instankill (or should cause you would hit an infinite amount of times)
100% double attack = 2x as much attacks, which is = 50% haste.
There's your update to ppl wondering about the epic million pages this is taking to explain.
You guys still don't understand. Haste isn't exponential itself... DELAY might be, because attack speed is influenced by delay, delay is effected by haste. Your haste only has an INDIRECT influence on attack speed. Reducing delay, however, has an exponential effect on attack speed.
Logic tells us the following values will be shown by a test on reraise recast:
5% haste = -3 seconds (57 sec recast)
10% haste = -6 seconds (54 sec recast)
15% haste = -9 seconds (51 sec recast)
Further proof:
Illustrated here is the spell reraise, which we all know has a 60 second recast. First reduction you see is made by the addition of 5% haste. The second is 10%, and the final is 15%. I only used numbers that were divisible by 60 so there is no rounding to prove the point. No fractions of seconds missing.
So... Case and point: Haste isn't exponential. Haste effects delay, and spells linearly. Delay itself is exponential. The lower the delay, the greater the impact on attack speed it obtains. Haste has no DIRECT impact on the attack speed, it's merely an indirect relationship with the delay.
So what do we know now? Haste effects delay and recast ONLY. It effects both in a 100% linear fashion. DELAY'S effect on ATTACK SPEED is the only exponential factor here, which is not related to haste. Haste doesn't have any exponential factor within itself in a direct fashion, it can only effect exponential outcomes indirectly.
Logic tells us the following values will be shown by a test on reraise recast:
5% haste = -3 seconds (57 sec recast)
10% haste = -6 seconds (54 sec recast)
15% haste = -9 seconds (51 sec recast)
Further proof:
Illustrated here is the spell reraise, which we all know has a 60 second recast. First reduction you see is made by the addition of 5% haste. The second is 10%, and the final is 15%. I only used numbers that were divisible by 60 so there is no rounding to prove the point. No fractions of seconds missing.
So... Case and point: Haste isn't exponential. Haste effects delay, and spells linearly. Delay itself is exponential. The lower the delay, the greater the impact on attack speed it obtains. Haste has no DIRECT impact on the attack speed, it's merely an indirect relationship with the delay.
So what do we know now? Haste effects delay and recast ONLY. It effects both in a 100% linear fashion. DELAY'S effect on ATTACK SPEED is the only exponential factor here, which is not related to haste. Haste doesn't have any exponential factor within itself in a direct fashion, it can only effect exponential outcomes indirectly.
[+]
And this is the troll keeping this forum going........ forever.
Duvessa don't get into recasts now, your starting to become lame.
Read my above post.
Duvessa don't get into recasts now, your starting to become lame.
Read my above post.
This just in, nobody gives a ***. We don't give a ***about the number of delay. When we look at gear, you know what people care about? The increase to their performance. Everything two posts above me just said is totally irrelevant, and means nothing.
Carbuncle.Axle said:
And this is the troll keeping this forum going........ forever.
Duvessa don't get into recasts now, your starting to become lame.
Read my above post.
Duvessa don't get into recasts now, your starting to become lame.
Read my above post.
The fact you were all just disproved has you shaking doesn't it? Poor little boy :(
10% haste on a 500 delay weapon = -50 delay
20% haste on a 500 delay weapon = -100 delay
50% haste on a 500 delay weapon = -250 delay
It works the same as recast, dumb ***. Every 1% added has the exact same effect as the previous 1% added. It's linear.
Does delay effect attack speed in a non linear factor? Yes. But does haste directly raise attack speed? No. It lowers delay.
Ever saying haste is exponential is idiotic and wrong. It is NOT. It may have an indirect factor on ONE exponential trait (attack speed) but it does not, by the game mechanics, have a direct effect on that. If you want to be correct, say DELAY is exponential. We all know delay is lowered by haste.
duvessa you are right and wrong at the same time. since if you want to get technical haste does effect delay....but it effect on att speed isnt really indirect.
and i say this because if you actually read what haste says in its description by SE its "increases targets attack speed" not "reduces targets delay" thus..... you are right and wrong.
and i say this because if you actually read what haste says in its description by SE its "increases targets attack speed" not "reduces targets delay" thus..... you are right and wrong.
Quote:
The fact you were all just disproved has you shaking doesn't it? Poor little boy :(
10% haste on a 500 delay weapon = -50 delay
20% haste on a 500 delay weapon = -100 delay
50% haste on a 500 delay weapon = -250 delay
It works the same as recast, dumb ***. Every 1% added has the exact same effect as the previous 1% added. It's linear.
Does delay effect attack speed in a non linear factor? Yes. But does haste directly raise attack speed? No. It lowers delay.
10% haste on a 500 delay weapon = -50 delay
20% haste on a 500 delay weapon = -100 delay
50% haste on a 500 delay weapon = -250 delay
It works the same as recast, dumb ***. Every 1% added has the exact same effect as the previous 1% added. It's linear.
Does delay effect attack speed in a non linear factor? Yes. But does haste directly raise attack speed? No. It lowers delay.
Nobody cares
Leviathan.Phenomena said:
duvessa you are right and wrong at the same time. since if you want to get technical haste does effect delay....but it effect on att speed isnt really indirect.
and i say this because if you actually read what haste says in its description by SE its "increases targets attack speed" not "reduces targets delay" thus..... you are right and wrong.
and i say this because if you actually read what haste says in its description by SE its "increases targets attack speed" not "reduces targets delay" thus..... you are right and wrong.
Slow:
Reduces enemy attack speed.
How come 50% slow has the exact reverse effect of 25% haste?
Because they're based off delay.
1000 delay with 50% haste = 500 delay. 200% as fast.
1000 delay with 50% slow = 1500 delay. 150% as slow.
They SAY attack speed, but they influence delay.
why do you guys care so much? 12pages already....
Only reason i'm posting now is because idiots are saying offensive things about me and the OP :P
So i finally got tired of it all and posted the only clear proof that will shut them up... Too bad most of them are too stupid to understand it. However, i know Veg does. He would have posted a counter argument if he didn't believe it :P
So i finally got tired of it all and posted the only clear proof that will shut them up... Too bad most of them are too stupid to understand it. However, i know Veg does. He would have posted a counter argument if he didn't believe it :P
Quote:
Slow:
Reduces enemy attack speed.
How come 50% slow has the exact reverse effect of 25% haste?
Because they're based off delay.
1000 delay with 50% haste = 500 delay. 200% as fast.
1000 delay with 50% slow = 1500 delay. 150% as slow.
They SAY attack speed, but they influence delay.
Reduces enemy attack speed.
How come 50% slow has the exact reverse effect of 25% haste?
Because they're based off delay.
1000 delay with 50% haste = 500 delay. 200% as fast.
1000 delay with 50% slow = 1500 delay. 150% as slow.
They SAY attack speed, but they influence delay.
You done yet?
The trolls aren't the problem, it's those of you who feel some compulsive need to be right about everything. You can't let ***drop.
Leviathan.Duvessa said:
Only reason i'm posting now is because idiots are saying offensive things about me and the OP :P
So i finally got tired of it all and posted the only clear proof that will shut them up... Too bad most of them are too stupid to understand it. However, i know Veg does. He would have posted a counter argument if he didn't believe it :P
So i finally got tired of it all and posted the only clear proof that will shut them up... Too bad most of them are too stupid to understand it. However, i know Veg does. He would have posted a counter argument if he didn't believe it :P
Edit: Though I do skim, and read this post because I saw my name when skimming
Sylph.Spency said:
The trolls aren't the problem, it's those of you who feel some compulsive need to be right about everything. You can't let ***drop.
Yourself and Veg included. I'm right, in this case :P
Prove me wrong. I don't think you can.
see now your just nitpicking. i agree that haste has the same effect on delay every 1% you add....its just the attack speed in which you get increased isn't the same 1%..and since it says "Attack speed" and not "delay" in its description. im going to say that haste is exponential.
and once again. this is because haste "Target" is attack speed. not delay.....so think about that
and once again. this is because haste "Target" is attack speed. not delay.....so think about that
Leviathan.Duvessa said:
Sylph.Spency said:
The trolls aren't the problem, it's those of you who feel some compulsive need to be right about everything. You can't let ***drop.
Yourself and Veg included. I'm right, in this case :P
Prove me wrong. I don't think you can.
I'm clearly a troll, and an amateur one at that.
You're just a stubborn *** :/
Waits for SE to increase the haste cap for gear....
Leviathan.Duvessa said:
Sylph.Spency said:
The trolls aren't the problem, it's those of you who feel some compulsive need to be right about everything. You can't let ***drop.
Yourself and Veg included. I'm right, in this case :P
Prove me wrong. I don't think you can.
Watermelons are purple inside. But turn red when you break the outer surface.
Prove me wrong.
Leviathan.Duvessa said:
Sylph.Spency said:
The trolls aren't the problem, it's those of you who feel some compulsive need to be right about everything. You can't let ***drop.
Yourself and Veg included. I'm right, in this case :P
Prove me wrong. I don't think you can.
Situation A) You're right
Situation B) You're wrong
In both situations, you'd still gear the same way, so it makes no *** difference.
Haste as a function of damage can be modeled as an exponential increase (it's not, but it's close enough given the limits of the domain of the function).
f(h) = h/(100 - (x + h)) where x is a constant (your haste before adding) models this increase.
This is all anyone cares about, though not in such a mathematical form. Haste can be modeled as an exponential increase within the scope of this function - and this function is all anyone cares about when adding haste to impact melee damage.
f(h) = h/(100 - (x + h)) where x is a constant (your haste before adding) models this increase.
This is all anyone cares about, though not in such a mathematical form. Haste can be modeled as an exponential increase within the scope of this function - and this function is all anyone cares about when adding haste to impact melee damage.
Sylph.Tigerwoods said:
In both situations, you'd still gear the same way, so it makes no *** difference.
Well yea, I obviously agree with you here. In no way am i saying haste isn't good or shouldn't be worn, lol. It's the easiest and most effective way to boost your total DoT. All i was trying to do was prove that it's delay's returns that are exponential in nature, not haste's. That's where the delay calculations and the spell casts came into play. It has a linear effect on an exponential factor.
Bahamut.Raenryong said:
all anyone cares about when adding haste to impact melee damage.
What about utsusemi recasts? What about flash recasts? :P
May i note, those are both entirely linear returns.
And if haste directly influenced attack speed then it would have differing results from dual wield. If you only have 20 dual wield trait, your delay will be the same as if you only had 20 haste. Dual wield effects weapon delay. Thus haste effects weapon delay. Otherwise haste would have varying results as it would ignore the delay/60 formula for the initial calculation. Attack speed is merely a number WE fabricate to explain how many seconds each swing takes based off delay. Attack speed to SE means delay.
Leviathan.Duvessa said:
Bahamut.Raenryong said:
all anyone cares about when adding haste to impact melee damage.
What about utsusemi recasts? What about flash recasts? :P
May i note, those are both entirely linear returns.
durrr
Melee attacks = exp
Recast, delay = linear
I know exactly what you're trying to do. I'm just saying it's totally irrelevant to this game. You may as well post it in general chat, because it has nothing to do w/ XI at all.
Make a general math thread and go *** with it there.
Make a general math thread and go *** with it there.
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