After Haste Comes Double Attack?

Bare with me for a moment on this. It's just some theory that I don't have the levels, gill or gear to test. I figured I would post it here to see what people thought.

Ok, well to start off let's get the Haste Slots out of the way:
Head: Turban 5%
Waist: Black Belt 12%
Pants: Byakko's Haidate 5%
Feet: Fuma Sune-Ate 3%

That gets the 25% haste out of the way, now onto the Double Attack:
Base DA from /WAR: 10%
Ursine Claws with DA Aug: 7%, also DMG+23
Brutal Earring: 5%

That's 22% from gear that's easy to get, just time consuming or expensive. Still lower then the OAT from the other Ursine Claws. Next up:

Juogi(+1): 4%/5%
Aesir Mantle: 1%/3%

Juogi is still really hard to get and the Aesir Mantle is situational. 27-30% depending on +1 and Darksday. Now we're just getting to the level of Double Attack on the OAT UClaws.

Now on the buffs
Ifrit's Favor: Gets up to a 12% after some time.
Fighter's Roll: 1-18% or 7-24% with WAR in party.

More variable then the Aesir Mantle. If you have time to build up the Favor and are lucky on the roll that's a +30-36% on top of whatever else you have. Given the optimal gear set up that's about 60% Double Attack, higher then the reported rate of DA and TA on the OAT UClaws combined.

Like I said, just some speculation. Anyone that knows more about this want to comment?

Firstly, before anyone else says it:
Job: 71MNK/24NIN

Secondly, does Double Attack have a cap?

<Deleted the 3rd bit because it was stupid>

I'd assume a 50% cap overall?

Does sound pretty interesting. Tiger should know this easy, I'd say we wait for him.

I've always wondered, at what increment of Double Attack+% does it start to slow down the increase of damage? How much DA is actually worth getting?

Oh, btw: Haste cap is 26%, which gets rounded down to 25 because of SE. So you're 1 haste short.

Paladin in an MMM party was being lazy and wanted us to go /NIN. I left after the first run failed. >.> I hate going /NIN but people aren't inviting Monks to parties on my sever that much. Sometimes you take what you can get.

Also, the rest our valid points. I was just putting forth a theory since I can't do any testing myself.

Edit:
Oh, I didn't know that. Thanks.

I'd say at the point were you are sacrificing good attack / accuracy slots for DA, maybe 20-30% if you can't get the trait?
I'd say it would be better do mix DA in with your TP gear if you can get enough that you see a notable amount of procs.

By no way am I a math person but doesn't DA funtion like haste? Would certainly add DoT and TP gain, but you also want to keep your haste and accuracy up. For WSs I'd imagine dropping the DA slots to only what you don't have major mod pieces for. Don't know how much DA would help on a WS that doesn't have much mods on it, and not like Asuran Fists for example can benefit from it. Thats my thoughts on this =/

Wow thats surprising, how did that come out?

I could see if you put 80% double attack in you would be hitting ***crap damage as you wouldn't have any STR or ATT+ gear...

Ok then. That answers my question. That's why I asked it in the first place.

I stole it from Raen's screenshots lol.

Yea I'm curious too, I can understand as more DA+% is added, it's less effective as the previous +% added. That I would believe, but to say someone who has ~80% DA is actually 50% as productive as someone with 0%DA? I would think the line would still be above 1..

The line would make more sense if it was flipped on the x-axis, no? Or maybe I'm not understanding "Improvement in Damage"? Following the line backward you improve your damage output by taking off DA?

Ment how was the testing done, but guessing you don't know ><. If they were stripping haste gear off I could see it easily turning out that way, but with capped haste? Eh, I dunno. I'd want to say that for some jobs a haste/acc/DA TP phase might yield some interesting results if it's done just right. Then again I could be totally wrong.

Assume a base rate of 100 swings.

Now add 1%

101 swings in the same period, which is a increase of (1/100) 1%

Now add 1%

102 swings in the same period, which is a increase of (1/101) 0.99%

Now add 1%

103 swings in the same period, which is a increase of (1/102) 0.98%

And so on

But the OP is right, after haste and accuracy DA/TA is the next best method for increasing TP gain (see Apoc aftermath builds for example).

Right, and that's why I said each would be worth less than the previous +% added. But shouldn't the line go up and level off? I mean you are improving damage by added some DA, right?

I bolded the part of your statement that explains the chart. The chart is graphing how much your damage increases if you add 1% of [something]. Adding 1% of double attack to a base of 80% double attack will give you less benefit to your overall damage than if you add 1% double attack to a base of 50%; this is exactly what the bolded section of your statement says that you understand.

Alright, I see that, just taking the graph labels too literal. Sorry. XD

Yes the graph is in percentage returns compared to the previous step. Not raw damage.

I guess I didn't realize there was that large of a difference between Haste and DA, I knew it was better, but wow.

That's because DA is addition, while Haste is subtraction. 50% Haste is actually doubling your attack speed whereas 50% DA is just an extra half swings.

Interesting... very interesting... So given all that, considering all the options, what is the optimal DA+ that you can get without letting other things fall by the way side?

During TP?
* 7% in gear is normal for 2handed DD (Pole grip + brutal).
* For one handers its normally around 5% (brutal).
* For Apoc owners it can be as high as 11% (pole, brutal, ares, and maybe askar)
* But there is the new togi type body with DA on it, so maybe 10%+ might be sensible on SAM or MNK.

During WS? depends a lot on the job and the WS, but normally not a lot more than TP.

It's not that DA+ hits a random number and suddenly slows you down, it's just the performance of adding DA diminishes as you increase it's value. But if your other important stats are capped then by all means

Sorry, got held up with other things.

So I'll assume this applies to TA as well? (Yes fairly stupid question, still want to know)

Also I'd like to bring in OAT and #-# weapons into this. Given that they proc seperatly, aside from the virtue weapons, would adding DA help them any or does the graph still stand true? Leaning towards it staying true but once again, curious.

TA is the same (actually drops of faster).

Occasionally attack X to Y times weapons actually reduce the effect of DA gear.

For example brutal gives a 5% increase in swings to a normal weapon.

But only gives a 2.5% increase in swings to a joyeyse.

And only gives a 0.1% increase in swings to m.kris/ridil/BZ etc.

Finally brutal earring reduces the number of swings a KC would do.

So with merits the total i should be using is 22%?

DA is put in places where it is the best option.

Pole is nearly always the best grip out (excluding sword strap situationally)

Brutal is nearly always the best earring.

So use those 2 if you have them, but don't use askar body (when your accuracy isn't capped) or Ares legs (instead of byakkos for TP) just 'cos you think you need X% DA.

But yes, a fully merited WAR will have 22% DA wearing a normal TP build.

Ok, thats fairly interesting to see and just as I expected to hear.

I mentioned earlier in this thread that DA comes after Haste and accuracy.

And for jobs that do more than 50% of their damage during the TP phase (ie MNK) then attack can be more important than DA (depending on the exact trade off, ie 10DA is better than 2 attack).

Need to remember that food can give a pretty huge chunk of accuracy and attack as well, giving you more room for haste/DA gear depending on what you fight.