Aesir Mantle > Foragers For Tp?

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Aesir Mantle > Foragers for tp?
 Shiva.Flionheart
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By Shiva.Flionheart 2010-03-24 20:40:29
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Midgardsormr.Frobeus said:
Shiva.Flionheart said:
Shiva.Weewoo said:
Shiva.Flionheart said:
Phoenix.Jovant said:
for mnk att is always > then w/e (unless your acc is just *** & if u need a back item to cap your acc something is very wrong)
so charger > Cerberus 1 > Forager > amemet 1 > lolnqamemet > Aesir... (this is my opinion) but aesir is worth ***to a mnk i rather wear a nq amemet if i had too...
if u do this fight and your a mnk aesir ear item > then the back item.
str is NOT that much of an importance to a Mnk... *feels sad when a mnk is caught wearing a rajas ring* shame on you!

I was always taught and follow

Haste> Acc> Atk> Str> Dex.

Of course depending on whether acc is capped atk might edge on top of it.

For TPing, I couldn't agree more~ However, with the quoted post, Rajas is still great for h2h/1handers until you're able to get lava/whatever that other new ring is :X

Oh yes, don't get me wrong that's not set in stone at all.

My little rule is always bendable.

2 high stats on a ring for example is way way over something higher on the priority list. I normally change my gear around a lot and eyeball the damage tbh.

I just got a fenrir earring tonight, and I'm interested on how that'll be over my Diabolos.

The problem is, changes like diabolos / fenrir are going to be impossible to eyeball.

I know, I've never got a parser to work in my life D:
 Fenrir.Nightfyre
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By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2010-03-24 20:44:21
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Even parses won't give you a fully accurate answer. Too many variables you can't control for in a parse.
 Shiva.Flionheart
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By Shiva.Flionheart 2010-03-24 20:45:54
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I guess I'll stick with Fenrir earring for now then, fun excitement.
 Midgardsormr.Frobeus
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By Midgardsormr.Frobeus 2010-03-24 20:46:51
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Shiva.Flionheart said:
I guess I'll stick with Fenrir earring for now then, fun excitement.

But it will do nothing at night.

Most likely I'd say
If Acc capped Fenrir @ day - Merman's @ night

If Acc uncapped Diabolos always - Fenrir @ dark weather.


 Shiva.Weewoo
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By Shiva.Weewoo 2010-03-24 20:48:13
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The double attack back piece really seems like a shot in the dark when it comes to use in WSing. Wonderful potential but just too impractical if you're looking for consistency. But for TPing, I dunno. Hard to say, maybe worthwhile if you have it stacked via pole grip, lolaskar or something of the like.
 Bismarck.Altar
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By Bismarck.Altar 2010-03-24 22:14:33
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Quote:
If it procs like Joyeuse, the DA will overlap rather than stack. Thus, you're looking at a partial value with heavily reduced returns. Assuming 50% (the 45% number's been in question for a while, I like 50%), you're really only adding 0.5% DA on non-Darksdays. On top of that, you have 15% DA innately (57.5% before Aesir). 1.58/1.575=0.32%; if pDIF is uncapped Forager's will be better. On Darksday it's a 0.63% increase... pDIF would still have to be very high for Aesir to win.

So Perdu is better off with Aesir, but ToM is better off with Foragers... Looks like I need one new piece either way :\
 Bahamut.Raenryong
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By Bahamut.Raenryong 2010-03-25 01:03:56
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I wouldn't go out and specifically get the piece though honestly. The upgrade is SO minor except on Darksday that it really doesn't justify the effort/inventory slot imo.
Quote:
Rajas is still great for h2h/1handers until you're able to get lava/whatever that other new ring is :X

Rajas is 99% of the time, best in slot. 2h/1h/h2h, whatever. L/K aren't bad, but acc/Rajas is better.
Quote:
str is NOT that much of an importance to a Mnk... *feels sad when a mnk is caught wearing a rajas ring* shame on you!

How much damage precisely does STR add?

No offence, but people shouldn't be making highly assertive statements without some basis of fact. +1fSTR is 2%~ damage to a MNK, assuming not capped. Rajas Ring also increases WS frequency which although minor on MNK, is still important.
 Midgardsormr.Frobeus
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By Midgardsormr.Frobeus 2010-03-25 01:07:13
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Raen, I need you to maths all that DA questions I had on the first page :/
 Bahamut.Raenryong
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By Bahamut.Raenryong 2010-03-25 01:22:20
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Oh, sorry :x insomnia is horrendous and makes me miss things.
Quote:
Yes to Hagun and Gorget

Elv 5/5 Str

WS gear = RSE ammo, orc hat, gorget, bush, brutal, osode, alky, triumph, rajas, warwolf, usu leg, rutter

On a single hit WS with /war does stacking DA have diminishing returns vs straight str?

Situations like /War(10) + pole(2) + brutal(5) + askar body(2) + new mantle(1) would be 20% DA rate.
Or 3% DA vs 10 str.

Another even more situational use would be during Sekkinoki and Meiyko(sp) with Hachiman Jinpachi +1.

I'm assuming the 3% DA from hachi would beat the 2 Str increase from orc helm (maybe wrong on that), but would stacking a full DA set here be helpful (with the xtra 3% from hachi head assuming that DA on ws doesn't suffer from diminishing returns)

This is the post?
Quote:
On a single hit WS with /war does stacking DA have diminishing returns vs straight str?

Both have diminishing returns actually. Anything which isn't Haste/-Delay/reducing "x hit" always has diminishing returns as a rule of thumb~
Quote:
Or 3% DA vs 10 str.

Teh STR (I can show you the math if you like, but it's just another version of the stuff I did on the first page but with different numbers)
Quote:
I'm assuming the 3% DA from hachi would beat the 2 Str increase from orc helm (maybe wrong on that)

Nope, 3% DA > 2STR as you thought.
Quote:
but would stacking a full DA set here be helpful (with the xtra 3% from hachi head assuming that DA on ws doesn't suffer from diminishing returns)

Instead of specifically stacking DA, you should choose which is best out of the STR and DA in each individual slot I think. Since neither get better with quantity, may as well just choose the one with the most magnitude. I'm not 100% familiar with SAM WS gear outside of the most common setups, but DA vs STR on Tachi: Gekko is basically, for want of a more complicated relationship, "pick the highest number".

1STR is pretty damn close to 1DA on Gekko. The increase in damage through 1DA is ~0.5% and the WSC from 1STR averages to ~0.445%. When you consider the increase in fSTR and such, they pretty much come out to be roughly the same.

However, unconfirmed is whether the DA on Gekko receives the accuracy/pdif bonus of the main hit (if it does not, this would make the STR more valuable). Basically use whatever is the larger number in most cases.
 Midgardsormr.Frobeus
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By Midgardsormr.Frobeus 2010-03-25 01:32:36
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Cool. I guess the main thing I was wondering was if there was a threshold when stacking enough DA would begin to overcome a greater amount of Str.

Since that appears to not be the case it makes the Mantle pretty worthless.

Also now means I get to start looking for a freaking jinpachi +1.

Interesting point about the loss of the Acc bonus to the first hit when a DA procs. We all have seen the many 1% returns. I would think though that you def do not have the bonus for the 2nd hit, but that is just speculation as there is no way to know that.
 Ramuh.Ilvex
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By Ramuh.Ilvex 2010-03-25 01:38:08
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thought rajas only increased ws if it brings you down a hit on you build?
 Bahamut.Raenryong
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By Bahamut.Raenryong 2010-03-25 01:40:44
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On a 2hander, yeah, since TP when mob hits you etc is so small compared to your TP/hit.

On a 1hander though, you get a low amount of TP per hit and so TP gain is more chaotic. Things like mobs hitting you suddenly give you extra weaponskills and with the liquid nature of DA/Dual Wield/etc, Rajas ends up just giving you 5%~ WS frequency overall.
 Ragnarok.Titox
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By Ragnarok.Titox 2010-03-25 04:10:30
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in my opinion i would get this for reason right now i have 9% DA as sam in gear.....

with Aesir Mantle it would increase to 10%....since sam are WS spammer not DoT hits......my mission is to get to 100% tp fast as possible....as /war i would be at sweet 20% change between to full STR for WS for y/g/k but still for polearm i would use if i had it Cuchulain's Mantle for TP if merit bird camp since most of the time your food is going to go poof with them lol

WAR main job....i still don't know if is a good idea to change amemet+1 or Foragers or cerb mantle+1 or Cuchulain's Mantle for that

MNK i would stick with anything that give STR ATK or ACC on the back since mnk is 70%DoT and h2h is count as 1handed weapon so yea

BLU i would stay Foragers or Cuchulain's Mantle if i had it 75 because most physical spell mods is STR and DEX or something like that but not sure since my blu is 65 ;/

 Bahamut.Raenryong
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By Bahamut.Raenryong 2010-03-25 04:26:45
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Quote:
in my opinion i would get this for reason right now i have 9% DA as sam in gear.....

with Aesir Mantle it would increase to 10%

Your reasoning is pretty much spot on, but just a quick note about this: stacking Double Attack actually makes each successive point of Double Attack worth less than the one before it.

Basically, going from 0% => 1% is a bigger increase than from 9% => 10% (people intuitively think that Double Attack gets better the more you stack it, when instead if you're talking comparatively it gets worse).

You can produce a graph of the Double Attack function and perform calculus on it if you wish to confirm this result.
 Bahamut.Raenryong
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By Bahamut.Raenryong 2010-03-25 04:36:20
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Since I'm bored and have nothing better to do before lectures, I'll copy and paste over the relevant thingy just in case anyone wants this result proven.
Quote:
y = 100n/(x+100)

is an effective equation of the DA graph; y represents the percentage increase in damage caused by an increase in n Double Attack effective on a base stat of x.

Let's analyse the graph's features as further confirmation of the "decreasing returns" of Double Attack.

Differentiating the above function with respect to x to obtain an expression for the change in y relative to the change in x yields you the equation: (note n is a constant as it is chosen independent to this graph - this may seem minor but it's a big deal that this is the case in calculus)

dy/dx = - 100n/(x+100)^2

Notice the minus sign; this basically tells us that the function is decreasing. To further prove that this is the case, let us calculate the turning points of the function (dy/dx = 0)...

dy/dx equals 0 when either n or x = 0. If n is 0 then it should not be a surprise that there is a turning point, since there will in fact be no gradient to speak of since you are not adding anything (hence the initial equation simplifies to y=0)!

If x is zero the result is not useful since there is no comparative gain/loss (however still a negative result). Therefore, the rate of change of y relative to x is a decreasing trend with no turning points. This basically shows mathematically that this function is decreasing contrary to what some people may say!

Tl;dr: Yes, Double Attack does become less valuable as you add more of it.

NB: If dy/dx did have useful zero results which aren't a consequence of n=0, I would've had to take (d^2)y/dx^2 in order to calculate the sign of the turning points. However, since this is not the case this step is unnecessary.

EDIT: Cleaned it up a bit from the original post, so it's not word-for-word.
 Asura.Tygon
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By Asura.Tygon 2010-03-25 05:15:11
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Forgers ftw
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